Let me start off by saying good show…but jono I have to correct you in some points you made. for one in numbers 22:22 it does not say in the Hebrew text the form of Ha satan as it does in the book of Job, the fact that only in job and in the book of zech is the Hebrew term ha satan used with the hebrew article mind you..which is Ha .. the word THE.. The word with the article means that the meaning of the word should receive prominence. and it’s funny how you link it with the angel of Yehovah in the book of Numbers 22:22 when in fact all is says that the angel took a adversarial position, and NOT that HE was THE ADVERSARY … like you said in your presentation anybody even God can take that position,in a generic sense, and NOT that he was HA SATAN. By adding the article in the Hebrew text the writer is telling you that this satan is not be taken in the generic form..but giving us a clue a hint. That this is someone very different, he is given a title, The other point I noticed too that you quote 1 Chronicales 21:1 and you link with 2 samuel 24:1 and you say that the satan here is yehovah..well jono you are wrong in that point ..for in Hebrew there is no indirect speech, do you remember Nehemia gordon touch on that subject a while back on Malachi 2:16 where some english bibles change the hebrew text to read it as “I hate divorce,” says the Lord God of Israel, yet in the hebrew text ..The verb שָׂנֵא (sane’) appears to be a third person form, “he hates,” meaning not Yehovah but someone else. the HE there is talking about the men of Israel who hated to divorce.. so the same can be said of how 2 Samuel 24:1 is constructed it says ..He incited David against them, you see in the English language we have indirect speech, But not in biblical Hebrew. Like you said Many interpreters and translations render the Hebrew SATAN as a proper name here, “Satan” (NEB, NASB, NIV, NRSV). However, the Hebrew term SATAN, which means “adversary,” is used here without the article. Elsewhere when it appears without the article, it refers to a person or national adversary in the human sphere, When referring elsewhere to the entity known in the book of Job and in the NT as Devil, or HASatan the noun has the article and is used as a title, “THE Adversary” (see Job 1:6-9, 12; 2:1-4, 6-7; Zech 3:1-2). In light of usage elsewhere the adversary in 1 Chr 21:1 is likely a human enemy, and NOT Yehovah as you said ,,,it is probably a nearby nation or an UNNAMED PERSON who is adversarial against Israel pressuring David into numbering the people so he could assess his military strength. So although in the Hebrew Bible it does not give us alot of detail of who this HA SATAN is ..but only hints, it is not until you get to the book of Job and parts of Zech and the NT is when more is given about this UNNAMED ENEMY of man and God. the greek text calls him the Devil which is a title for slander which means oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another, which untruth will harm the reputation of the person …which is what the HA SATAN did to job….challenging his loyalty to Yehovah. By saying that he only worshiped or was loyal to him because of what God had giving him and only out of self interest. Well job proved that this HA SATAN was wrong and a lair…in which Yeshua called him John 8:44 …You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth,because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. and the interesting part of that text is Yeshua connected him with the incident in Genesis..giving us the answer of who was the one making that serpent talk, calling him a murderer, because of bringing Death to mankind. by deceiving eve. That’s if you believe jono that the Genesis account is to be real and not some allegorical teaching which some Jews think it is. So if I was you, I would not so easily discount what the NT says about this UNNAMED adversary, and believing that he some servant of God. based on your understanding of Numbers 22:22.
sandie b says
I concur with Peter – a good study is one that motivates you to study further. And as Peter will understand, I had to look at all those scriptures again, from a different side, outside the box, even tho he shared what he had found.
Enjoyed your study and Peter’s also.
Glenn says
I think that the point of the jewish scriptures is being lost here. The point is that the Hebrews believed in one all powerful, all knowing creator that is totally spirit unlike his creations. And He is in control of all creation. They surmized that if there is good and evil in the world, both can only have one source, i.e., the creator. There is no overly powerful enemy that can thawrt His decisions or will. The adversary(ha satan) can do nothing that creator does not allow or direct him to do. Ha satan is not running about behind the Creator’s back undermining His plans. The later ideas of a Satan or Devil [that is dueling with the Creator] are pagan concepts. And if the Creator has no duel force outside of Himself-“Yehova, thy God is ONE” – then all of his doings are righteous because there is no other to tell Him that He is wrong for His decisions. Whatever He does is right whether we like it or not.
Peter says
Well Glenn one factor to be considered is that while God is all powerful, all knowing creator that is totally spirit unlike his creations, you forget One very important factor it is this, That God gave his human creation as well as his angelic creations free will.. The Scriptures show that God extends to such creatures the privilege and responsibility of free choice, of exercising free moral agency, thereby making them accountable for their acts. if we where take your understanding that he is in control of all creation, and all knowing and that no one can thwart His decisions or will. Then let’s take the example of adam and eve ? The question then arises: Is his exercise of foreknowledge infinite, without limit? Does he foresee and foreknow all future actions of all his creatures, spirit and human? And does he foreordain such actions or even predestinate what shall be the final destiny of all his creatures, even doing so before they have come into existence? The view that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Its advocates reason that God’s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future. According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection, but in this case God’s own will and good pleasure, and not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect.
Doesn’t it sound more reasonable that God would exercise his foreknowledge in a selective manner and in a discretionary way, so that whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee or foreknow, he does not? remember it can not violate free will. Here are some Biblical examples at genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Yehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1) God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Yehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12; so you see in this case he chose to KNOW what type of man Abraham was. Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. In the case of Adam and Eve He presented them an opportunity of full obedience and with that they could of taken from the tree of life and live forever…but think about this if God knew that Adam would sin wouldn’t that make God responsible for all the evil that man has done? since the Jewish understanding is that God created evil, but the text in Isa 45:7 is contrasting light with darkness ..then the next contrast is shalom peace and the hebrew word that follows is RA but RA has a wide range of meanings not only evil or bad but calamity . so really you can read the text like…I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am Yehovah, who accomplishes all these things. So context will determine how to understand the word Ra since the writer is doing a contrast here. the contrast is not GOOD AND EVIL ..but PEACE AND CALAMITY.
Elena says
The mechon-mamre Jewish Bible thus translates the verses:
1 Job 1:6
(6) Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
ו) וַיְהִי הַיּוֹם–וַיָּבֹאוּ בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, לְהִתְיַצֵּב עַל יְהוָה; וַיָּבוֹא גַם הַשָּׂטָן, בְּתוֹכָם.)
It translates הַשָּׂטָן , the second word from the left, with Satan, capital letter
1 Chronicles 21:1
(1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
א) וַיַּעֲמֹד שָׂטָן, עַל-יִשְׂרָאֵל; וַיָּסֶת, אֶת-דָּוִיד, לִמְנוֹת, אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל.)
The word is now שָׂטָן (without article), the second word from the right, and is also translated with Satan, capital letter
Peter: very accurate and enlightening comment, thanks a lot
Thanks a million Jono and Jason for pursuing truth and offering this platform for study and depth.
Laura says
Who is Lucifer? Love your show!
Sarah says
Peter, do you remember where Nehemia talked about Mal 2,16, indirect speech and so on..was it at torah pearls? I’d like to listen to it!!
Jono+Jason: Looooove your work! Thanks a million!!
Hi Peter
Great comments above. Lots to think about.
Can I revisit a point above about Yahovah, Adam and Eve? You note that if Ya knew what Adam would do then perhaps Ya is responsible in some way for the fall of mankind.
Is it possible however we are looking at this story all wrong and that Adam was faced with a love choice/dilemma Ya needed Adam to be faced with. Adam was fully aware. Would Adam take the “fruit” from Eve, eat and face death to be with his “bride”. Or would he refuse to eat and be lost for eternity in a garden without the love of his life. If so then Adam is a prophetic foreshadow of Yeshua… the choice to die for his bride, or live and loose His love to eternal damnation… a second Adam perhaps? Perhaps the eating of the fruit is actually a love story and not one of whippings and lashings the Catholic church has conjured for us. The big problem being the word “with” (Adam was with Eve). Let me put it this way… If I asked you on the phone “is your wife with you?” and you said “yes she’s here”… does that mean shes out the back in the garden, or standing at the earpiece listening? It could mean both right? Likewise the word “with” in this verse leaves yours and my heart open to cast condemnation, or seek truth. Many quickly condemn Adam as I once did. But Ya later does the condemning. Adam wasn’t condemned directly by Ya… only the ground under Adam was cursed.
So Ya may have known Adams choice all along because it was part of the plan all along (declared the end from the beginning)… a fallen people learning the magnitude of what has been done for them. And that may be the meaning of this short life… a test… to follow the god of my own making (“image”, “imagination”) or to love Truth (Ya). Maybe we did all know Him before the beginning and its only us and HaSatan finding out our one true love (ourselves or Ya). If you love someone set them free and if they love you they will return…
May we free men teach angels to love their master by our choices in this short time we have.
Just a thought or two.
Great work everyone… I love this journey, and the One who is revealing it through His Ruak and my fellow servants …to a donkey like me 🙂
Russ
Karen says
thanks Jono and Jason very interesting subject indeed? Hey Peter I would love to have your email address I REALLY loved your thoughts. And could use your help on this subject. Can you please email me.
Or give some way to connect. I am on Facebook.
Jono, please give my email address to him.
Thank you
Karen says
Jono, I would love to ask Judd to share MORE insight on the thoughts of what the Catholic Church has conjured up. Man…when I read Peters response and then yours…I said…H.E.L.P!!! Hey guys help an innocent soul out…share some knowledge.
Karen
peter says
Well Karen i just got to see your comments I don’t know if you will see this or not since the post and subject is old…but if you do see this my email is : pquin7@gmail.com I would be glad to help you in your quest in understanding.
Let me start off by saying good show…but jono I have to correct you in some points you made. for one in numbers 22:22 it does not say in the Hebrew text the form of Ha satan as it does in the book of Job, the fact that only in job and in the book of zech is the Hebrew term ha satan used with the hebrew article mind you..which is Ha .. the word THE.. The word with the article means that the meaning of the word should receive prominence. and it’s funny how you link it with the angel of Yehovah in the book of Numbers 22:22 when in fact all is says that the angel took a adversarial position, and NOT that HE was THE ADVERSARY … like you said in your presentation anybody even God can take that position,in a generic sense, and NOT that he was HA SATAN. By adding the article in the Hebrew text the writer is telling you that this satan is not be taken in the generic form..but giving us a clue a hint. That this is someone very different, he is given a title, The other point I noticed too that you quote 1 Chronicales 21:1 and you link with 2 samuel 24:1 and you say that the satan here is yehovah..well jono you are wrong in that point ..for in Hebrew there is no indirect speech, do you remember Nehemia gordon touch on that subject a while back on Malachi 2:16 where some english bibles change the hebrew text to read it as “I hate divorce,” says the Lord God of Israel, yet in the hebrew text ..The verb שָׂנֵא (sane’) appears to be a third person form, “he hates,” meaning not Yehovah but someone else. the HE there is talking about the men of Israel who hated to divorce.. so the same can be said of how 2 Samuel 24:1 is constructed it says ..He incited David against them, you see in the English language we have indirect speech, But not in biblical Hebrew. Like you said Many interpreters and translations render the Hebrew SATAN as a proper name here, “Satan” (NEB, NASB, NIV, NRSV). However, the Hebrew term SATAN, which means “adversary,” is used here without the article. Elsewhere when it appears without the article, it refers to a person or national adversary in the human sphere, When referring elsewhere to the entity known in the book of Job and in the NT as Devil, or HASatan the noun has the article and is used as a title, “THE Adversary” (see Job 1:6-9, 12; 2:1-4, 6-7; Zech 3:1-2). In light of usage elsewhere the adversary in 1 Chr 21:1 is likely a human enemy, and NOT Yehovah as you said ,,,it is probably a nearby nation or an UNNAMED PERSON who is adversarial against Israel pressuring David into numbering the people so he could assess his military strength. So although in the Hebrew Bible it does not give us alot of detail of who this HA SATAN is ..but only hints, it is not until you get to the book of Job and parts of Zech and the NT is when more is given about this UNNAMED ENEMY of man and God. the greek text calls him the Devil which is a title for slander which means oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another, which untruth will harm the reputation of the person …which is what the HA SATAN did to job….challenging his loyalty to Yehovah. By saying that he only worshiped or was loyal to him because of what God had giving him and only out of self interest. Well job proved that this HA SATAN was wrong and a lair…in which Yeshua called him John 8:44 …You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth,because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. and the interesting part of that text is Yeshua connected him with the incident in Genesis..giving us the answer of who was the one making that serpent talk, calling him a murderer, because of bringing Death to mankind. by deceiving eve. That’s if you believe jono that the Genesis account is to be real and not some allegorical teaching which some Jews think it is. So if I was you, I would not so easily discount what the NT says about this UNNAMED adversary, and believing that he some servant of God. based on your understanding of Numbers 22:22.
I concur with Peter – a good study is one that motivates you to study further. And as Peter will understand, I had to look at all those scriptures again, from a different side, outside the box, even tho he shared what he had found.
Enjoyed your study and Peter’s also.
I think that the point of the jewish scriptures is being lost here. The point is that the Hebrews believed in one all powerful, all knowing creator that is totally spirit unlike his creations. And He is in control of all creation. They surmized that if there is good and evil in the world, both can only have one source, i.e., the creator. There is no overly powerful enemy that can thawrt His decisions or will. The adversary(ha satan) can do nothing that creator does not allow or direct him to do. Ha satan is not running about behind the Creator’s back undermining His plans. The later ideas of a Satan or Devil [that is dueling with the Creator] are pagan concepts. And if the Creator has no duel force outside of Himself-“Yehova, thy God is ONE” – then all of his doings are righteous because there is no other to tell Him that He is wrong for His decisions. Whatever He does is right whether we like it or not.
Well Glenn one factor to be considered is that while God is all powerful, all knowing creator that is totally spirit unlike his creations, you forget One very important factor it is this, That God gave his human creation as well as his angelic creations free will.. The Scriptures show that God extends to such creatures the privilege and responsibility of free choice, of exercising free moral agency, thereby making them accountable for their acts. if we where take your understanding that he is in control of all creation, and all knowing and that no one can thwart His decisions or will. Then let’s take the example of adam and eve ? The question then arises: Is his exercise of foreknowledge infinite, without limit? Does he foresee and foreknow all future actions of all his creatures, spirit and human? And does he foreordain such actions or even predestinate what shall be the final destiny of all his creatures, even doing so before they have come into existence? The view that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Its advocates reason that God’s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future. According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection, but in this case God’s own will and good pleasure, and not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect.
Doesn’t it sound more reasonable that God would exercise his foreknowledge in a selective manner and in a discretionary way, so that whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee or foreknow, he does not? remember it can not violate free will. Here are some Biblical examples at genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Yehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1) God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Yehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19; 22:11, 12; so you see in this case he chose to KNOW what type of man Abraham was. Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. In the case of Adam and Eve He presented them an opportunity of full obedience and with that they could of taken from the tree of life and live forever…but think about this if God knew that Adam would sin wouldn’t that make God responsible for all the evil that man has done? since the Jewish understanding is that God created evil, but the text in Isa 45:7 is contrasting light with darkness ..then the next contrast is shalom peace and the hebrew word that follows is RA but RA has a wide range of meanings not only evil or bad but calamity . so really you can read the text like…I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am Yehovah, who accomplishes all these things. So context will determine how to understand the word Ra since the writer is doing a contrast here. the contrast is not GOOD AND EVIL ..but PEACE AND CALAMITY.
The mechon-mamre Jewish Bible thus translates the verses:
1 Job 1:6
(6) Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
ו) וַיְהִי הַיּוֹם–וַיָּבֹאוּ בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, לְהִתְיַצֵּב עַל יְהוָה; וַיָּבוֹא גַם הַשָּׂטָן, בְּתוֹכָם.)
It translates הַשָּׂטָן , the second word from the left, with Satan, capital letter
1 Chronicles 21:1
(1) And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
א) וַיַּעֲמֹד שָׂטָן, עַל-יִשְׂרָאֵל; וַיָּסֶת, אֶת-דָּוִיד, לִמְנוֹת, אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל.)
The word is now שָׂטָן (without article), the second word from the right, and is also translated with Satan, capital letter
Peter: very accurate and enlightening comment, thanks a lot
Thanks a million Jono and Jason for pursuing truth and offering this platform for study and depth.
Who is Lucifer? Love your show!
Peter, do you remember where Nehemia talked about Mal 2,16, indirect speech and so on..was it at torah pearls? I’d like to listen to it!!
Jono+Jason: Looooove your work! Thanks a million!!
Hi sarah yes he talked about it here https://truth2u.org/2012/08/nehemia-gordon-keith-johnson-pearls-from-the-torah-portion-ki-teitzei-deuteronomy-2110-2519.html
he also wrote a article on that text to..here is the link so you can read it yourself .http://www.leavingjesus.net/TC/TorahCreation/Tanakh/divorce.htm
Hi Peter
Great comments above. Lots to think about.
Can I revisit a point above about Yahovah, Adam and Eve? You note that if Ya knew what Adam would do then perhaps Ya is responsible in some way for the fall of mankind.
Is it possible however we are looking at this story all wrong and that Adam was faced with a love choice/dilemma Ya needed Adam to be faced with. Adam was fully aware. Would Adam take the “fruit” from Eve, eat and face death to be with his “bride”. Or would he refuse to eat and be lost for eternity in a garden without the love of his life. If so then Adam is a prophetic foreshadow of Yeshua… the choice to die for his bride, or live and loose His love to eternal damnation… a second Adam perhaps? Perhaps the eating of the fruit is actually a love story and not one of whippings and lashings the Catholic church has conjured for us. The big problem being the word “with” (Adam was with Eve). Let me put it this way… If I asked you on the phone “is your wife with you?” and you said “yes she’s here”… does that mean shes out the back in the garden, or standing at the earpiece listening? It could mean both right? Likewise the word “with” in this verse leaves yours and my heart open to cast condemnation, or seek truth. Many quickly condemn Adam as I once did. But Ya later does the condemning. Adam wasn’t condemned directly by Ya… only the ground under Adam was cursed.
So Ya may have known Adams choice all along because it was part of the plan all along (declared the end from the beginning)… a fallen people learning the magnitude of what has been done for them. And that may be the meaning of this short life… a test… to follow the god of my own making (“image”, “imagination”) or to love Truth (Ya). Maybe we did all know Him before the beginning and its only us and HaSatan finding out our one true love (ourselves or Ya). If you love someone set them free and if they love you they will return…
May we free men teach angels to love their master by our choices in this short time we have.
Just a thought or two.
Great work everyone… I love this journey, and the One who is revealing it through His Ruak and my fellow servants …to a donkey like me 🙂
Russ
thanks Jono and Jason very interesting subject indeed? Hey Peter I would love to have your email address I REALLY loved your thoughts. And could use your help on this subject. Can you please email me.
Or give some way to connect. I am on Facebook.
Jono, please give my email address to him.
Thank you
Jono, I would love to ask Judd to share MORE insight on the thoughts of what the Catholic Church has conjured up. Man…when I read Peters response and then yours…I said…H.E.L.P!!! Hey guys help an innocent soul out…share some knowledge.
Karen
Well Karen i just got to see your comments I don’t know if you will see this or not since the post and subject is old…but if you do see this my email is : pquin7@gmail.com I would be glad to help you in your quest in understanding.