Rabbi Eli Cohen – A Jewish Perspective of Messiah
What is a counter-missionary and how does it differ from an anti-missionary? Why do Jews acknowledge some potential messiahs but not Yeshua? What exactly is a messiah and where does the concept come from? What is long-term prophecy, what is its purpose and how does it relate back to messiah? Will there be multiple messiahs? How does the Jewish and Christian messiah differ? What are the qualifications of the Jewish messiah and will it be David?
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Question for Rabbi Eli Cohen, (or anyone who understands the following)
When you mentioned the account of the righteous and the wicked person as described in chapter 33 by the prophet Ezekiel, the words used are “surely live” and “surely die”. Is this speaking of our natural life, if so don’t we all eventually die? Or is there something in the Hebrew that does not come across in the English?
Gris:
Try to read Isaiah 43-53 without the goggles of Christianity and the theology/doctrine that WE have been taught since little and keep in my the Language/History/Context barriers in mind, and you will clearly see that the main “Subject” here is ISRAEL not a Messiah, let alone Yehoshua! And if I am wrong then I apologize and please you or anyone let me know so I can research it again! Peace my friends.
I was given some beautiful advice recently from a friend and rabbi. After following the responses to this radio interview, I can see how many people are striving to deal with this question of who Jesus/Yeshua was.
Many people have believed very deeply that no one but our creator deserves our worship, and that the man Yeshua actually deserves that loyalty as the incarnation of God, who gave a costly sacrifice for human sin. Nonetheless some of them are wondering whether this belief, in which they’ve personally known God, can actually be accepted by any Jew who is absolutely careful to test and guard everything according to the commandments, who has a clear awareness of Tanach and what the Jewish community is. It’s a confusing and painful place to be before God. Other people are either disillusioned with aspects of Christianity, or they simply see that when you give the Torah priority to Christian tradition, things don’t add up with the NT claims. Even if it all seems clear in that way, we can question our own ability to recognise such important truths. In relationships with other people it’s painful to be seen as ‘Judaising’, as being outside the circle of real faith and response towards God.
However we come to the decision that faith in God might not be the same as faith in Yeshua, that Judaism might have an important message that we must respond to, it’s possible to become defensive in front of other people or anxiously obsessive in our own search; striving to find and proclaim a strong and secure argument in favour of what seems true to us. So I asked a rabbi I know how the counter-missionary argument can be something that always glorifies God in people’s relationships with Him, rather than confusing us, taking away the central loyalties of people’s intimate relationship with God, or even leading to pride or separation from other people. He answered that we just need to keep seeking purity and truth in the most hidden parts of our relationship with God, and with other people, and that the light will shine through as we simply do that. In my experience, he’s right. He also said that the key seems to be holding on to what we have and building on that, learning to appreciate it more fully, rather than obsessing over what we don’t yet know. It’s important to stay outward focused and to live in thankfulness and faithfulness with what God has given us to walk in this day, while looking to other people’s needs before our own journey or faith identity’.
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The Jewish understanding of God is so important in its truth. It matters to see God in the way He desires to be known, whatever that feels like from where we once stood. It makes a big difference not to be distracted by false things that are in the mix of our dependence on Him. It’s also important that we can stand with the Jewish people who know they live in order to proclaim to the world their knowledge that God alone created us, deserves our hearts, and is the power that we must rely on. Every part of creation is a testimony to who He is, and we are His servants. Even while Christians have an awareness of these things, in a way that God responds to in relationship and faithfulness, the Christian beliefs discourage, confuse, alienate, and endanger Jews who pour out their lives to belong to God alone as He commanded. So these are the things we need to focus on if we are praying about who Jesus was, or even telling people why the Jewish testimony seems to make sense. It has to be about God, about Him and His truth alone. Somehow we need to stay humble and gentle. It has to be about the people we’re talking with and the integrity of their faithfulness before Him, as much as we each know of what He asks from us. It can’t be about us. But it’s such a blessing to walk in His light, just a day at a time as He Himself pours it out. When we surrender to Him, we can trust Him to lead us and to catch our attention. There’s a lot of beauty in living lives set aside in every part as a gift to our creator.
Ditto Ira, quite a few soap boxes here!
I found this incredibly interesting and it’s my perspective that the main basis for non acceptance of Yeshua as Messiah is the false understanding of what the gospels and the letters teach as presented by ‘christianity’. For instance, what it means to take away sin based on him forgiving it as opposed to it being taken away at the resurrection.
I think it could be blurring the line somewhat by referring to ‘jews’ as God’s chosen people as opposed to ‘israel’, this would exclude all the rest of the tribes. I know it’s convention now to use this term now, but it’s not biblical convention. I can’t believe that all people with a Jewish (modern definition) bloodline will be saved regardless of how they live their lives and i don’t believe scripture teaches this either.
I personally take ‘there is no saviour but me’ literally, so whether you believe yeshua will be the Messiah or not, i personally can’t see it not being some manifestation of God himself.
Either way, thank you Rabbi Cohen and Jono, this hashas been very informative.
Yeshua was not human…he had the Fathers DNA only. His mother was a surrogate only, he had non of her DNA! So no human was sacrificed for our sins…..He was Divine! He died to bring us back to Torah paying for our evil ways.
Elaine, if Yeshua was not human then you are saying that man killed God. If Yeshua was human, he is not to be worshiped. Herein lies one of the many problems with Christianity.
You have to be Kidding me, The Holy One has No DNA. He is Eternal, without beginning nor end. He has no form and is total Spirit.DNA is a make up a print of Humanity that differs us from all of His creation. Answer your own Question, if He had DNA who gave it to him? Another creator perhaps.
Yeshua does have dna as he was THE “promised seed”.
Michaelia, God allowed his son to die. Yeshua laid down his life in obedience to the Father and for all mankind. No one took his life. This has nothing to do with Christianity. I noticed the rabbi having a hard time understanding the difference between Christianity and Hebrew Roots, Jews and Israel.
Wow, since everyone has their own oppinions as to the diety of Yahushua or no, I’ll share my view, which I do believe is true since nothing I believe goes against Torah.
Yahushua was a man, a human being. He DID have his mother DNA eccept for one gene which made him a male which Abba did through a miracle, otherwise he had only one set of DNA. I say this according to the fact that the blood that was taken from the mercy seat and tested showed this.
Mary was his mother, BUT she is definately not the mother of God, nor did God die when Yahushua died.
When Abba gave us creation, he gave us natural things to explain is wonderous Spirit being, since a spirit has no form, it is necessary for us to learn the things of Elohim through His creation, including His beloved Yahushua whom He annointed with His Set-apart Spirit. I do not find it at all strange that YHWH clothed himself in Yahushua’s perfect flesh. According to the Tenach, there were a few who were moshiach, annointed. Yahushua the son of Nun was one, Mosheh was one, David was one, EliYahu was one, and so on.
Yahushua also made clear the full meaning of the Spring Feasts which no other human ever did! It is my oppion that all the moshiach knew how Yahushua would fulfill the Feasts. This is part of having a circumcised heart of flesh, allowing the Torah to sink in and love Torah. Therefore if we love Torah, we must reject any man-made laws which block Abba’s Ruach away from men. This is the problem with all religion. Religion always has man0made laws, traditions, and doctrines which interfere with Abba’s reality and make us spiritually near-sided, and even blind.
What I love about Yahushua is how he understood the heart of Torah, that he called YHWH his Abba, that he lived a full life until about age 30 without ever having sinned against His Abba, and how it was his words that caused me to look at Torah and learn to love Torah. Believe me folks, this is not taught is ANY religion.
The Jews have their religion based not upon Torah, but upon the laws of their Rabbi’s written over many generations, who claim to help their people keep the Torah of Mosheh. Nothing could be further from the truth. I say this because according to Torah, we shall not add to nor diminish from it, which the man-made laws do. “No man, not even Yahushua has authority over the Torah of Mosheh, to change it in any way.”
The Christian’s also have many flaws. Christianity is generally mixed with the “pagan traditions of men.” We can thank Jaroboam, Poop, and Constantine mainly for this trouble. While paganisim is based on many gods, Torah teaches rightly that there is only one, and Yahushua taught that this one was YHWH, the same as Mosheh taught. Christians can only believe in a trinity (a 3 headed god), through deception and plain imagination!
Imagination, brings me to the commands, mainly the 2nd command. Though shall not make a graven “image” of YHWH. Combine this with the belief that the Covenant will be renewed, and the TORAH will be engraved in our hearts of flesh “to walk in it;” and we have an evil perscription for making an IMAGE (imagination) of the Father as the son, rather we are supposed to look at the son, Yahushua H’Moshiach as “the perfect example” for us to follow. Yes, Yahushua was perfect, and therefore a perfect reflection of his Abba YAH, BUT, he is not YHWH the Father, and he never will be. To believe diffferently is to reject Yahushua’s own words!
Finally, Jews and Christians (Jews and the lost sheep of Israel) are both guilty of doing away with the Father’s precious name. Shame on you both!
Don’t even get me started on other religions because they are ALL evil.
Sincerely,
Laurie Jo
Laurie Jo well said..I couldn’t agree more. It took me a long time to understand that Yeshua was not God! I know now it sounds silly but that’s just what I was taught. However, with the Spirit and understanding the commands that Yeshua brought me back to (with his own words) I began to feel condemned that I was violating the 1st and 2nd commandment. I prayed about it very much and had some trouble understanding many things and wow has Yehovah blessed me with sooo much more understanding than I could have ever imagined and I am constantly learning. I believe as you do that the Spirit (in which rested upon the waters at beginning of creation) is that which Yeshua had within him without measure and spoke the words of the Father (as prophesied) and as Yehovah has always communicated with his people through His word through prophets and angels He did so through His son in the last days (Hebrews 1:1-2). Very well said Laurie Jo!!
Krisi,
I love the way you wote that “the the Spirit (in which rested upon the waters at beginning of creation) is that which Yeshua had within him without measure’…
Beautiful are the images YHWH made to show us how awesome He is. Why would we need to imagine our own? There is no way to outdo YAH!
LaurieJo, (I accidenally responded to you on the other posts lol)
Thanks! It’s interesting that the one who made that connection about that same Spirit from Gen. 1:2 being the same Spirit which will rest upon Messiah (in Isaiah 11:1-2) is in the Jewish writings of Midrash Rabbah.
And we know Yeshua stood up and read from Isaiah 61 (Luke 4:18-21) in reference to that Spirit which was upon him!
I already miss Nehemia and keith…bring the Homies back Jono!
LaurieJo and Krisi… interesting thoughts in these last few comments 🙂 I’d love to hear your perspective on these questions, to get a clearer picture of how you see things.
Do you agree with all the books in the New Testament?
What do you think of the idea that the commandments in the Torah are still meant to be kept by Jews?
If you believe most Christians through history have been (unintentional) idolators, what makes you believe that Yeshua was nonetheless Moshiach?
Do you think that a person’s forgiveness comes by Yeshua’s death and resurrection, and that each person must believe in him to have a relationship with God?
And why do you believe the Orthodox Jewish community is wrong? What do you think about the Talmud, the Oral Law, and the way communities decide together how to guard, keep, and honour the Torah?
Also, what do you believe about the Holy Spirit?
In light of Isaiah 11:2, I understand the Midrash Rabbah to be speaking allegorically… saying that Moshiach will come with, and amidst, an outpouring of wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, and the knowledge and fear of God. Over the waters is likened to the widespread repentance that will be opened in that time, over which God will establish the knowledge of Himself and His glory. So while this spirit is closely connected to the personal presence of God, I assume you didn’t mean ‘the Spirit’ in a sense of being personally God and in relationship with God while manifest in creation. I know you don’t agree with the imagery of ‘trinity’, but just clarifying.
Hi Annelise! Here are my answers:
Yes, agree with NT. Yes, believe not just Jews but all to keep commandments. I believe Yeshua is Messiah and will establish the kingdom at his second coming. As far as idolatry that is between each person and God. None of us have everything right but He knows our hearts; though, I believe truth is the utmost of importance. I believe early believers understood the truth and were persecuted and things got mixed in with the truth; in these last days it is being revealed in time for Messiah to come back and gather the people. I believe that we are to obey Yeshua and accept him in order to be keeping Torah(as I believe he is Messiah)…and yes, I believe one needs to believe in his death and resurrection as well as that is our promised hope. I believe the Talmud etc. is a valuable tool to seek out in reference to history and how early Jews believed and understood scripture. I believe current Judaism offers an abundant of information as well and has helped me tremendously but also know their beliefs have changed since the time of Yeshua. I believe these beliefs changed because they deny Yeshua and were also scattered after the fall of the temple and over time beliefs change (as we can see with early believers in Yeshua who got caught up in pagan holidays etc). I believe in the Holy Spirit just as spoken in the NT and also believe the Spirit is a gift from Yehovah and that Yeshua had it without measure (as NT states). I believe that what the scripture says about the Spirit being upon Messiah is infact literal and was upon Yeshua in all fulness. I do actually believe the Spirit resides within us and brings us to rememberance of the truth (as told in scriptures and as we see happening in our days). We see clearly even in OT scriptures where people were led by the Spirit, spoke in the Spirit, prophesied by the Spirit, etc..none of this was allegorical. Hope this answered all your questions 🙂
Okay. Thanks for answering so many questions! I feel I have a clearer understanding of what you think, though.
It seems like you come from a Protestant Christian background, and have come to decide that Jesus/Yeshua wasn’t God but that most of what the Messianic churches teach is nonetheless correct. I’m wondering what your process of realising those things about Yeshua was like, and how you came to be sure of it?
Also, what is it that makes you believe it’s vital for both Jews and for Gentiles to believe that this person in particular is central to the forgiveness of our sins, and that he’s going to come back as Moshiach? Can people know that this is unquestionably true?
Thanks for your thoughts, they’re really interesting.
Wow I could write a book on my journey lol but I won’t. As far as understanding Yeshua is not God it began with scriptures like there was no god formed before me or after me, I am he and besides me there is no other…etc.
So I was confused..Yehovah says His feet will touch down; Yeshua says his will touch down; etc etc. Many scriptures seemed to be showing Yeshua was Yehovah but Yeshua was formed..so I was baffled. After praying and studying I realized that Yehovah says He will do things but he uses people to fulfill his will. There have been many saviors of Israel in which Yehovah uses; He said He would smite Egypt but used Aarons rod and hand; etc. many examples. So I realized wow ok I understand now Yehovah is our Savior and it is only by His power and authority that he gives to the other people and that’s how we give Him praise even when our eyes see that it is through someone else. I put down the old testament for awhile and really really read the new testament and saw that in fact Yeshua clearly says his Father is greater than him; taught us to pray to our Father in heaven; says he does nothing without the Father; says he only speaks what he is commanded; prayed to the Father; states our God is his God etc. Now I do understand Yeshua is “God” as in judge just to be clear and I do believe Yeshua manifested the glory of the Father (but also believe that will be even more so at his next coming) 🙂
As far as Yeshua I understand now that his blood is for the covenant of the world to come. It’s something I don’t like thinking about because it’s sad. For example, those who claim they believe in him but don’t keep commandments (do they really know him?); those who keep commandments but don’t believe in him (are they really keeping the commandments)? Yehovah please have mercy on us all! I don’t know how it will all work out I really don’t all I know is I do believe what the scriptures say. I do believe there will be some on earth when he comes that will accept him and be able to enter in the world to come (but don’t know if it’s so with those already passed away?). He does say he came for the lost sheep and that the ones who are well don’t need a physician so I HOPE theres something to that but then things he says like you don’t accept me because you are not of my sheep and killed the prophets saddens me. I believe with all my heart and soul and honestly know Yeshua is the Messiah. His words are the ones that brought me back to the Father. Without him I would not be studying Torah right now and doing pagan holidays. His words have truly changed my life and he has done his job for many people (not just me). I honestly don’t see how anyone can see so many people coming back to the Father based because of Yeshua and question that he might not be Messiah. I owe my life to him and thank my Father for loving me so much that he spoke to me through Yeshua. It’s amazing !
Guys and girls 🙂 I just want to thank everyone for being so mature as to debate about things that are known to get people “heated up”. LOL I was reminded last night just how blessed we are and how greatful we should be to be able to have these conversations with one another. I was on a news site and it was talking about how Christians are getting beheaded in Syria right now and I clicked on a link and one showed someone get beheaded (yes it was real and sick) and one showed a person who was hanging on a cross (I don’t know if that’s how he died or if they hung him up after killing him) but flies were all over him and he had blisters all over. So disgusting! We all come together here seeking truth and for the love of Torah and I say that is AMAZING in itself. We all are waiting on Messiah (some to come back; some for first time) but we know he will make things right. And I just wanted to remind people of these things 🙂
Now on to my example of why I quoted some oral law. It seems some don’t like me doing this but I will show an example of why it can be helpful. Most of us know the parable Yeshua gave of new garment/old garment; new wine/old wine,etc (Luke 5:36-39). Well it’s unclear as to what he is referring to and some assume its the covenants but its not! In Pirkei Avot Elisha ben Avuyah said, “He who studies as a child,unto what can he be compared? He can be comparedto ink written upon a fresh [new] sheet of
paper. But he who studies as an adult, unto what can
he be compared? He can be compared to ink written
on a smudged [previously used and erased] sheet
of paper.” Rabbi Yose ben Yehudah of the city of
Babylon said, “He who learns from the young, unto
what can he be compared? He can be compared
to one who eats unripe grapes, and drinks unfermented
wine from his vat. But he who learns from
the old, unto what can he be compared? He can be
compared to one who eats ripe grapes, and drinks
old wine.”
Rabbi [Meir] said, “Do not pay attention to the container
but pay attention to that which is in it. There
is a new container full of old wine, and here is an old
container which does not even contain new wine.”
(m.Avot 4:20)
So we see:
New Garment/wineskins = uneducated students
Old Garment/wineskins = previously educated students
New Patch/wine = a new teaching or interpretation of
Torah
Old Wine=a previously learned teaching or interpretation
of Torah
Meaning = Previously educated students will reject new teachings
Yeshua choose unlearned people for a reason. Acts 4:13 agrees with this! His purpose is to bring us back to the Father!
Talmud states something similar:
The Emperor’s daughter said to Rabbi Yehoshua
ben Chananiah: “What beautiful teaching (Torah)
in an ugly vessel.” He replied, “Go and learn from
the wine-cellar of your father. In what is the wine
stored?” “In jars of clay,” she answered. “But all the
common people store their wine in jars of clay! The
Emperor should keep his wine in jars of gold and
silver!” She went and had the wine placed in vessels
of gold and silver, and it turned sour. “Thus,” said he
to her, “It is the same with Torah!” She asked, “But
are there not handsome people who are learned?”
He replied, “If they were ugly they would be even
more learned!” (b.Nedarim 50b)
containers are disciples; wine is Torah
Praise Yehovah for getting us back to Torah through Yeshua! We are no longer Gentiles but Israelites through the covenant…just as Abraham was called out we have been called out. Gen. 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but they name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations (goyim= Gentiles) have I made thee.
Shalom!
Thanks for these thoughts, Krisi. I’ve been thinking lately about the role of community in the Torah, that the righteous in Israel would keep the observances together and as such stand as God’s witnesses in every generation. Every part of Tanach repeats the idea that those who keep the letter and the heart of the Law are a community set apart from the nations: they hold the testimony of who God is, and what His scriptures are, who His prophets are, and how to know Him. He promised that in this community setting, His word will never depart from their mouths or their descendants’ mouths.
That’s not to say that any group knows everything, or that any group is perfect. But I’m curious to hear how you think the Torah and the knowledge of God have related to a community passing down what they have known and experienced, for the past two thousand years. Do you see the Christian community as holding the testimony of God’s truth, despite the fact that even all the Jewish Christians we know about for many generations weren’t keeping the Sabbath and were worshipping Jesus as God? Do you think that the traditional Jews held this testimony in their community, but that they have been missing the key to knowing God and being forgiven? Or do you think that although there’ve been at least a thousand years when no continuous community of Torah-keeping Christians existed, it doesn’t matter?
I’m definitely open to hearing however you think about this, because I’m still trying to understand the implications of it myself. It’s such a deep issue to consider.
Wow! I don’t mean to be rude but apparently some people here are forensic techs. and some how got hold of Jesus’s blood, to the point that they speak with authority of Jesus having DNA or not, Mother and not from the Father! no offence people but how in the world could any of you or us prove such a ratical statement? we can no longer take man’s word for and instead prove all things with facts not theories or “I believe” “I think” “I feel” no one on earth have this man’s DNA. No offense for real! I am not Jew but a former Christian so don’t take it on the Jews (my brothers from another mother 🙂 )
Annelise, I don’t think anyone can know for sure. I think that when one is presented with truth and reject it that it becomes the issue of sin (though I could be wrong). As Paul states he would not have known sin if it wasn’t for Torah(Romans 3:20; 7:7). This is 100% my take on this and my interpretation only (as reading I feel the Spirit revealed to me). That as Yeshua (who who is the word) was betrayed, handed over to Gentiles, mocked, spit on, killed, and resurrected that this was prophetically to happen as well. That the word was to be betrayed, handed over to Gentiles, mocked, spit on, killed, and resurrect(which is now occurring). I believe all throughout old and new testament scriptures the 3rd day is relevant and that’s when everything happened (I believe we are in the 3rd day since Yeshua) and he is “handing us the bread/word” and our eyes are opening and we are knowing him..as he did on road to Emaus (on 3rd day)..very symbolic all througout no doubt. Now if you don’t agree that’s completely fine, no need to bash me, I could totally be wrong as I have never ever heard anyone speak of this and it’s totally what I feel the Spirit has shown me. This being said, it was part of Yehovah’s plan for us to “die” with Yeshua and be “resurrected” with him…so how that plays a part in Yehovah’s forgiveness??? I honestly don’t know..but his mercy is AWESOME!! I pray for it for all of us!
Kelvin, no one can be for sure but I believe she was referencing the account of Ron Wyatt who found Sodom and Gomorrah, crossing of Red Sea, Noah’s ark, and states he found ark of covenant and had blood sample tested. Youtube it or goggle it and you can see his testimony. The ark testimony can’t be proven so obviously it’s not certain (as he said it wouldn’t be revealed yet) but I just wanted to give you her reference. I feel we all know we can’t know for certain though until it is found…either way, Ron’s testimony sounds amazing!
I really like reading the way you think and speak, Krisi… that’s why I’m asking your thoughts on this issue. Thanks again for dialoguing with me 🙂
What you wrote there seems to be an explanation of why you believe Yeshua was and will the the promised king to restore David’s line, and the one through whom forgiveness comes to humanity.
I’m still wondering, though… what do you think is the community that holds the testimony of God in the world, at the moment? I personally think it’s a problem to believe that the remnant community in whose mouths the knowledge of God is held has (for many centuries, at least) not been keeping the festivals and laws of the Torah. Those times and observances were meant to set that ‘mouthpiece community’ apart for all their generations: passing on the message of the Exodus, of Sinai, and of who our creator is. This was part of the method that God put in place to preserve His message in the world, and He promised that the remnant would always hold it. But there’s no community of believers in Yeshua that has passed these things down.
Maybe that’s not the end of the conversation, though? What do you think about my assumptions, when it comes to the idea that the community who holds God’s words for the nations, by His Spirit, would naturally have passed it down without a break in their observance of the plain, eternal commandments of the Torah? I’m asking out of genuine desire to talk more about this and get more clarity about the way we should see it.
First of all I appologize if I was antigonistic, didn’t mean to but I was in shock to anyone make such a claim unless you are the first hand witness! Thanks Krisi for the explanation, and I thought it was the Ron Wyatt’s claim; I saw his video last year and i was amazed. But then after I got over the fact that I cannot take mans word for anything unless you 2 o 3 reliable witnesses (not flase ones 🙂 ) I won’t believe it. Plus Ron said that the video was to be release (I think) after his death, and isn’t he dead? Just curious, but anyway; Let me make a point even if I am wrong and Yeshua was the Messiah, nobody can deny that the role of Messiah has never being to be a Redemer and forgiver of sin! Tanack says that YEHOVAH is the savior/redemer/forgiver of sins not the Anointed King, nor Anointed Prophet.
No problem! I believe no doubt Judah has preserved the Torah and all “old testament”. And I believe as scripture states they will hold the sceptre until Shiloh comes…but even then they will continue to hold it as Yeshua is of Judah!! We have had Torah but mostly didn’t read it and if it wasn’t for Judah we wouldn’t have it at all. And most definately they continue to help us understand scripture (I learn from them all the time..I just don’t agree with every interpretation but that’s normal). I also believe we’ve held a fundamental key to preserving truth (and that is gospel of Messiah) and as prophesied in the end days the 2 “sticks” would be merged into one and I feel we are seeing this happen now. I believe both hold key information and it becomes amazingly beautiful and was always part of Yehovah’s plan.
Annelise, I posted some more information regarding mercy on other recording with Rabbi Cohen that is also regarding the question you asked me (it was in response to another person though).
No problem Kelvin I understand what you mean..there is no way for us to know if his claims are true at this time. I do believe he would be a good person for Yehovah to reveal it to though (being that He lead him to find all the other things). As far as the savior/redeemer/etc. you are correct that it is Yehovah; however, you have to remember that He does it through His means of covenant. As he did with Moses and had Moses lead Israel out of Egypt; as he did with Joshua through battles and entry to promised land; and all the judges to get Israel back to Yehovah; Sampson who delivered them out of the hand of the Philistines. And it is clear that we have to obey the one/ones who He sends/sent (those who didn’t obey/rebelled against Moses were killed). I’m curious to know what you think about the promise of the ingathering..like how do you think that will happen? You don’t believe in the promised king of “David” to rule on the throne forever? That’s the promised seed that everyone is awaiting; the theme throughout scripture. Do you not believe there will be one? I’m not sure I understand your stance on this. Thanks.
That’s a really interesting idea. I haven’t thought about the image of two sticks becoming one as an image of the knowledge of God in Torah observant Judaism coming to join with the knowledge of God in the faith of Christianity. Do you mean it’s as if both communities have each held a different aspect of the testimony about who God is and what He wants from us?
The only question I would have with that is the question of who the righteous remnant of Israel is. Is that remnant made up of the Jews who have accepted Yeshua, and are part of a wider kingdom of God that includes Gentile believers as well? That’s how I think the NT describes it. Or does the righteous remnant of Israel include the rabbinic Jews who have preserved Tanach and the living-out of Torah (both the commandments and the covenant relationship, together)?
What do you make of Romans 10:1-4? I think that Paul was saying that Jews who reject Yeshua as Moshiach, as the way to forgiveness and relationship with God, are in fact not part of the remnant until they ‘return’ to Yeshua. That would imply that according to the New Testament, Orthodox Judaism does not fit the criteria for the group that is passing the testimony of God through their generations. Some other Messianic Jewish community must have passed on the knowledge of God that goes with the ceremonies, the teaching and keeping of Torah, and the desire to keep the commandments given through Moses with righteousness and sincerity, like the prophets said. That’s a dilemma, and I’d really value hearing a solution if there is one.
I don’t know if there is a solution except that everything is in God’s hands and ultimately in His will. Many on their death bed have accepted Yeshua. Rabbi Yitzhak Kaduri was a well known respected Orthodox who revealed Yehoshua as Messiah. It can be sad thinking of all the Jews who don’t accept Messiah, Christians that don’t keep Torah, etc and stressing over things. I do believe what scripture says and have cried multiple times thinking of such things; but the only thing that gives me hope and strengthens me is knowing Yehovah has known His plan before creation and Bible says He calls who He wants to righteousness (it’s not us who makes the choice); Ephesians 1:4; John 15:16; Jeremiah 1:5; Genesis 25:23 are all examples. Keeping this in mind I believe that Yehovah (who knows our hearts and our relationship with Him) is righteous and makes “correct” choices (for lack of better language). That being said I also want to make it clear that everything is in His time and some are still blind.
Krisi, I think what you’re saying is really important… there are so many questions to which this has been my answer! The importance of just surrendering to what God has revealed, and not knowing exactly what He’s doing with other people’s lives, but following Him in the way He is leading us nonetheless. I’m really moved, and challenged, by the humility with which you expressed that.
I wasn’t really talking about the remnant in terms of how individuals will be saved from judgment, though. That definitely factors in to the prophets’ message, where doing what is righteous leads to relationship with God while ignoring what He asks of us causes people to be cut off. But what I meant was that God originally set up a community that would carry His message in the whole earth, and He gave a lot of the Torah as a way of preserving that community and that message. It’s really important for us to recognise which community that remnant now is in our world, so that we can listen to their message and accept it. If that remnant is Christianity, then all Jews need to accept Yeshua, but if Messianic Jews cannot make a biblical claim to being the exclusive remnant then no one should join what they’re doing. In the same way, if any Jewish community can show that they are still the ones who carry this message, we really need to listen to them and affirm the things they’re saying about worship.
I feel that it’s a very practical question, and central to belief in Tanach. If that makes sense?
What I mean is that a lot of the commandments are designed to remind and to show Israel who they are. Keeping Pesach is a way of reliving the exodus every year, so that a community can pass on to their children what God did for them. The same with the other holidays, and what those days express to the people who experience and observe them. Keeping the Sabbath and kosher and other laws keeps the sovereignty of God tangible to the community, and gives expression to their surrender to Him; it also sets them apart from the rest of the world. In that way, God created and preserves His community of witnesses through the covenant He set up with them. If you want to find the group of people who are carrying the truth of God in the world, in any period of history, the prophetic message would imply that you’ve got to start by looking for people who are guarding the actual, specific commandments of the Torah, which was addressed to their own nation, and living its values with humility and love.
That’s why I have wondered whether it should matter that for many, many generations there were no Jewish communities who were keeping the original, eternal covenant and also accepted Yeshua as a prophet, Messiah, Lord, or God, or anything at all. Does that matter? Or is it okay if even the righteous remnant doesn’t really have it right, but ends up reforming their practice at some point and coming closer to what God asked from them; can they still be God’s witness community in the meantime?
I don’t think any of us have it all right lol. As I said I believe Judah has played a key role in keeping Torah and the Christians keeping gospel of Messiah. I think they both have held a place in of equal importance. I can admit I am very greatful for Judah in preserving these commandments when we all went astry. I hope one day they will all appreciate that we held on to the gospel (even though we messed it up originally lol). However, I don’t think we should follow any community of people I think we should follow Yehovah. Having people help us and praying about things is fine of course. I believe Yeshua is the one who holds the key to everything though. I believe he showed that some of the things the “Pharisees” did actually made the commandments of no effect..and this is why we have to be careful following anyone. We all make mistakes and can easily be led astray especially when we depend on man. So what I do personally is try learning Torah, pray and do my best from my heart; keeping Yeshua’s words dear to my heart as well knowing he is my Master and my Rabbi of whom I learn. Thanks for your kind comments!
I agree that we should choose wisely whom we consider our authority to be. As to the rabbinic leaders and the Pharisaic mindset, it seems like a constant movement between the fact that being too strict with the fences can distract from the heart of worshipping God and serving others, while being too loose with them can cause important things to be lost both from the tradition and from the written Torah (as you find in movements like Conservative Judaism). A rabbi I talked with about this said that the fences were designed to affect the way Jews look at the world, keeping a connection to the basics as the world moves further into confusion. But an ongoing corrective process keeps happening, to place certain concepts back into their true context.
Of course the fences can be lifted if they start to go against the Torah itself. But there is humility and caution in this process because of the knowledge that not everything in the original understanding of Torah was able to be contained in the written document, and that many judgments were made while the Temple was standing that were binding… so any consensus in the Talmud is accepted because of its closeness to that earlier time.
But I believe we all have a community and we all have a tradition. You understand the Torah in the light of Yeshua’s teachings, and I guess you accept him because of things you’ve heard and experienced in the community of people who think he was the Messiah.
I’m not suggesting that there’s an infallible group of people whom anyone should blindly follow. But when you look at the Hebrew scriptures, who were they written to? Who is the ‘you’ to whom God speaks over and over? Who had the right to tell the world what God is like and what His Law is, and who His prophets are? Why are so many commandments devoted to the maintaining of memory about the beginning of a community and the experience that happened to them? I believe that even while the discussion within Judaism is ongoing, growing closer to God, you can’t really read the Torah outside of the community to whom it was addressed. It’s not just my idea; I think that this issue is something that God raises a lot of times in the scriptures, that the righteous Jews in every generation are a testimony to God so that their generation and the next will know to love Him and value His Law.
I don’t know if I can talk too much longer here… I’m kind of wanting to take some time away from talking about Christianity, so I can just focus on relationship with God in the place where I believe He has revealed Himself in our world. But if you have any thoughts about what I wrote I’ll try to reply 🙂
Actually, maybe don’t answer here… a lot of these thoughts were brought up in the most recent radio interview (‘The Three Axioms of Judaism’). It might be better to start a new discussion there, engaging with the much clearer way in which some thoughts were expressed in that show.
Wake up! Judaism is no different than Christianity! It’s all pagan, based on lies, not the Torah! Rabbis are NO different than Sunday morning pastors! They want to be the authority, and they want people to listen to them. THey want to interpret the scriptures for the people instead of encouraging them to learn Hebrew (from Messiah, not a man on truth2u) for themselves. People, teachers are for children! Dive in the scriptures YOURSELVES for once and ASK YaHuWaH to give you revelation through his set-apart spirit! The spirit’s purpose is to lead you into all truth-the Torah, don’t rely on any rabbi to lead you into truth. Grow up in your faith, otherwise you will be bounced to and fro. Don’t bounce from one teacher to another. YaHuWaH is sufficient for you. He says seek Him and you will find Him. Don’t rely on a man to go up to heaven to bring the Hebrew Torah down to you or across the ocean to Israel for a “native of the land(there is no such thing)” to bring it to you. Even Abraham was not a native of the land and had to learn things directly from YaHuWaH, how to walk in His ways. He says to listen to HIS words and HIS instructions, not a rabbis. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees!
goto Kahana Hub Pages and read his last two articles. It’s time! Jono, why don’t you contact Avrom and get him as a guest on your show about real messianic prophecy happening right before our eyes. That’s crazy you say, look at the world if you want crazy.
Read Daniel 9 without a christian bias of this being about the anti-christ… this interpretation is WRONG. Use a KJV, CJB or ISR to read it, do it in the hebrew if you can. This chapter PROVES the coming Messiah that takes away the sacrifice and a 70 week ministry that anoints Him puts an end to the atonement sacrifice. The TaNaK does speak of Yeshua, but you have to look at this chapter for what’s really there and not with a christian or judaism bias.
Here is a video teaching that goes through the TaNak and Torah and proves the deity of Yeshua.
http://teshuvaministries.net/portfolio-post/deity-of-yeshua-jesus-steven-gardner/
Unfortunately for a large portion of Orthodox Jews they do not understand the Sefer HaTorah that they purportedly follow. Those that have an understanding of the Torah and Yeshua will know that the Torah is written about Yehoshua Mashichaynu as Yeshua clearly states.
It is clear to see the picture of Mashiach ben David through the telling of Bereshit where Yeshua the Word was with Elohim berayshit (in the beginning). Avraham speaking with Yeshua prior to Sodom & Amorah being destroyed, Ya’akov etc etc – Exodus with Yosef being the picture of Yeshua etc, and the in-numerous depictions of Yeshua throughout the Tanakh. So we’re not necessarily looking for words such as Mashiach or Messiah but words such Rock, Staff, Star, Word, Shiloh, Yeshua / Salvation etc etc, and remember Yehoshua stated quite clearly in the Ketuvim Netzarim that “if you do not believe Moshe how will you believe me, as the Torah was written of me.”
There is so much in Torah / Tanakh that speaks very clearly of Yeshua as He is the manifestation / representation of His father here on Earth prior to him being sent in the flesh to start the restoration of the Beit Yisrael. The profits speak very clearly of the one that will be sent. And yes I agree that christianity and Orthodox Judaism have a lot in common, they are both man made religions from the perspective that OJ declares they follow the Torah of Moshe but have replaced it with the Mishnah and Talmud, and do not do what the Torah tells them, and christianity also say they do what Yeshua says when clearly they do not. Christianity also follow there own doctrine that of men, and hence lead their flocks astray with the doctrines of men. Following along with this trend is Islam its origins can also be seen in the Torah. Unfortunately for all three religions their end is also spoken of in the Torah and Tanakh.
Do away with the Greek philosophers / early church fathers, do not listen to the doctrines of men and start studying the Scripture for yourself and pray Aveenu Malkaynu through the Ruach Hakodesh will show and teach you so you can start doing the things Yeshua said you must do – To love his Father is to keep the commandments. Yeshua kept everyone of them didn’t add too or diminish from. He was an obedient son who upheld All His fathers teachings / Torah. Until Heaven and Earth Pass, Not One Jot or Tittle will pass from the Torah until all is fulfilled. Chazon / Revelation tell us when this occurs.
Thank you Rabbi Eli Cohen, well presented, well presented. Unfortunately most started out as Christians and they cannot let the Torah say what it plainly says, trapped by the blinders of their religion. Jeremiah 16:19-21 was among the pivotal verses that opened my eyes. Who had the lies? Who had the truth? Who do the nations come to know? Well, they already have JC, but its not JC… they finally come to know HaShem.
I always tell Christians to look and see where things end up. And its not what they’ve been taught.
B’Shalom
Just listened to this in June of 2013, different. Jesus/Yeshua as THE messiah, not for me anymore.
Your discussion and your time you have invested in this site have been a “GOD send”. I mean that in the way the teachings have changed my life. So thank you all!
Still listening to Torah pearls,4th time through, spoken to the kk(Dev) and been helped immensely! Your site has provided so much help, via truth I can’t thank you enough. It is my privilege to help you, thank you again. Shabbat shalom and blessings to Jono and his fam.
thank you rabbi Eli Cohen, for your clear scriptural explanation of who is who. I really enjoyed listening to this. we must all learn to cast off our previously held beliefs that do not fit with scripture .
Rabbi Eli Cohen said God would never ever ever choose another people.
Really?
What does Moses mean when he said,
Deuteronomy 32
5 …THEY ARE NO LONGER HIS CHILDREN…
…
15“But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked;
you grew fat, stout, and sleek;
then he FORSOOK G-D who made him
and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation.
16They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods;
with abominations they provoked him to anger.
17They sacrificed to demons that were no gods,
to gods they had never known,
to new gods that had come recently,
whom your fathers had never dreaded.
18You were unmindful of the Rock that boree you,
and you forgot the G-d who gave you birth.
19“The L-rd saw it and SPURNED THEM,
because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters.
20And he said, ‘I will hide my face from them;
I will see what their end will be,
for they are a perverse generation,
children in whom is no faithfulness.
21THEY HAVE MAD ME JEALOUS WITH WHAT IS NO GOD;
THEY HAVE PROVOKED ME TO ANGER WITH THEIR IDOLS.
SO I WILL MAKE THEM JEALOUS WITH THOSE WHO ARE NO PEOPLE;
I WILL PROVOKE THEM TO ANGER WITH A FOOLISH NATION.
The same jealousy and anger G-d was moved to by his peoples’ choosing another god is the same anger and jealousy He promised to move them to by choosing another people.
dan1el2, it pays to keep reading: