Yoel ben Shlomo – The Issue of the Exclusion of Women & Shabbat in the Orthodox World
Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.
Download this episode (right click and save)
* Both the intro & outro tracks are by Jono’s little sister, Kate Plummer, from her second album “The Leftover Sea“. The Truth2U theme song is entitled “Crosswoods” & the outro music is entitled “Minnesota Rain”. It is a beautiful instrumental CD from a very talented guitarist and is available from Truth2U
I really appreciate your mission. I like the insights that your different guest bring up.
I have a few questions:
1) What about fire for heat? I can understand the fire for food. But….
2) We have a commercial goat dairy. We milk twice a day seven days a week. We make goat cheese. We have to pasteurize every other day and sometimes it becomes necessary to pasteurize on the Sabbath. We need some advice.
our website is http://www.humbleheartfarms.com
G’day Paul,
Regarding fire for heat, some interpret Exodus35:3 as meaning one is not to have any kind of fire burning. Others understand the verse to mean you may have a fire burning from the previous day, just don’t start one on Shabbat. Still others understand the prohibition of kindling a fire to be in the context of ‘work’, that is, verse 1 & 2, and therefore one may not kindle a fire for the purposes of work. I personally hold to the latter, however it should be noted that the former understandings are more widely accepted.
Regarding your goat milk dairy (yum), we, too, have goats but we separate the kids from them in the evening and milk them in the morning. On the evening of Shabbat we leave the kids with the mothers and rest from milking on Shabbat morning. In your case, I assume you take the kids off the mothers at birth and therefore have to milk them twice a day to avoid them getting mastitis. Therefore it is a necessary duty for the sake of the health and comfort for your goats. Do not employ somebody to do this on Shabbat. Personally, I would separate all duties to that which must be done from that which can wait.
The question then becomes what to do with Shabbat milk? Let us pretend you have chickens an sell eggs. Is it OK to collect Shabbat eggs on Sunday and sell them? Personally, I would have no problem doing so but a goat is different. You have to extract the milk on Shabbat (unless you have one of those naughty goats that will milk itself!).
I’m sure Yoel and I will discuss these questions in part 2. BTW, cool website 😉
Looking forward to parts 2, 3, 4 … or whatever it takes to grasp a better understanding of the Shabbat from Yoel’s translation of Hebrew.
My wife and I would always debate about driving our family on the Sabbath and never felt quite right when we did, now the answer is NO to driving with the exception of an absolute necessity.
Thanks Yoel for actually simplifying life in Torah observance with the concise and practical insight that you provide.
As for the name of our Creator I now have a better understanding of why Judaism steers clear of mentioning it and I respect that.
Although for me personally I would like to be able to pronounce and call upon the name of our Maker even under my breath in a time of need for direction and guidance.
It is discouraging that I am fully aware of the pronunciations of the many pagan gods of this world, I just don’t understand why it has been so difficult to learn the correct pronunciation of the One who created me.
Paul,
The issue of heating is a big one, in my opinion heating can be a life threatening issue in some places. Being as such I think that you can leave your heating on regardless to the different interpretations. About the goats most farmers will milk them and not use the milk. In the kosher laws in Israel this milk is discarded and not used.
Jono your example is perfect! In the eggs you do not do anything, so the eggs are ok, but with the milk you have to act.
Wow, this definitely raises a lot of questions for me!
I too must ask about using a fire for heat. Like many homes here in Maine (US), our home is heated with a wood stove. In the wintertime, it’s not uncommon for it to be zero degrees outside, or even minus. On those days, if we don’t have a fire going it can get really really cold in the house. It would be a very uncomfortable and unpleasant Sabbath! (Could it be considered “work” for your body to try and keep warm under harsh circumstances? HA!) It’s hard for me to accept the “no fire at all” concept, simply because I don’t like it! However, I don’t want to be in violation of a strict command. I guess my real question is the reason behind the commandment. WHY did YHVH give the commandment- what is it’s real purpose and meaning? I might have to listen to this again, in case such question was addressed.
On another topic, I love to knit (!!!!!!), and Sabbath has become my day for doing so, since I’m so busy the rest of the week. I can’t bring myself to make time for it the rest of the week because it seems more like a guilty pleasure in my mind. But in a sense it is “work”, even though it may be pleasurable. The end result is a finished (and usually) profitable product. I say profitable in the sense that I usually knit hats and other usable products- I don’t sell any of it.
Anyway, it is something for me to think about… hmmmmmm
Once again, I love the program!
Jono: thank you for all you do for the father, I truely apreciate all the short lessons.
Hello Jono & Yoel,
Thank you for this very educational teaching…Your teaching is helping us to
better understand the Jewish community and why certain things are done
in certain way…Another teacher I listen to tells us that we *all* have
traditions…Jewish and Christian…So we need to take a step back
and take a look at what we *do* and those traditions that go against
the the Word of God we need to be discarded (christmas and easter are
the big ones to discard)….We need to look at “how then should we live?”
A couple of topics that we would be interested in learning about more
would be the Jewish understanding of Heaven and Hell and tied very
closely with this the Jewish understanding of “your place in the world to
come” vs. the Christian “saved”….Even the apostolic writings state:
“Salvation is of(from, comes through) the Jews (John 4:22)”…
My family and I are not Jewish….we have left the Constantin church and
we now “home assembly” using ALL of God Words and do our best to
keep/guard HaShems’ instructions…My other question is this…at times
we fellowship with a very small Jewish congregation in a nearby town
on Sabbath…What would be some guidelines that we should use to
direct our conversation on Sabbath….I know this sounds pretty basic…
but this is all so very new and we do not wish to be an offense to Gods’
people…
Thank you again for taking your time to do this show…
May HaShem bless you in all that you do.
–bill
Jono, don’t give Yoel a rest even on Shabbat. Push him to teach. 🙂
Yoel, thank you for the good teachings. That combustion in the engine is fire–no question, but fire as a concept? The verb used in Exo 35:3 can mean “to kindle” (Exo_35:3, Isa_30:33, Isa_43:2, Jer_7:18) but much more times it has been used as “to burn” continually (Lev_6:12, 2Ch_4:20, 2Ch_13:11, Neh_10:34, Isa_1:31, Isa_10:17, Isa_40:16, Isa_44:15, Jer_7:20, Mal_4:1; waste/burn, Num_24:22). In Eze_39:9-10 it is used with both meanings. So, if we can render Exo 35:3 like this: “Do not burn a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day” we may have the understanding that it was meant to be understood as “Do not cook on Shabbat” because cooking is a work (the context is in Exo 35:2). Please, give us understanding of “fire” as a concept. What verses did you mean? Also, what if the ancient had to rekindle a fire on Shabbat during the cold winter days or a candle to read Torah, if it was blown out for some reason?
I struggle with the driving on Shabbat, not as a combustion issue but as a lack of restfulness. I drive total 40 miles on Shabbat (some 60 and more) to get to a Messianic congregation in Central Florida. If my car breaks either I have to fix it (work) or to hire someone else (work). Also, I can be injured or to injure someone else. That is not restfulness.
If Shabbat is the sign of the Covenant, I need to know the truth as it is in Tanak.
Thank you Yoel and Yono (no “J in Hebrew .. right? 🙂 for a very interesting talk. The hour went by much too quickly. Looking forward to hearing more soon.
I live 100 miles south of the arctic circle. You can guess what will happen if I fail to kindle my fire at -40F. It seems to me there is too much dissection of the meaning of gathering food, kindling a fire or working (or causing someone else to work) on Sabbath. When you understand that the children of Israel were eating and being sustained from the table of the king (creator) within his presents ,it puts these commandments into a different context. Shall I not use electricity, water, sewer because someone has to be at the station to monitor these utilities? A very unhappy household indeed with cold, dark unflushed toilets! How can it be that YHWH could be the author of so much confusion and discomfort? I keep the Torah to the best of my ability and understanding. I would truly love to keep all the laws, statutes and commandments but some of the ways these things are being presented and dissected are just not based on reality and quite frankly seem ridiculous. Is this just a lack of faith on my part that I should allow the misery of frostbite to bother me? Jono, your programs are very inspiring and I enjoy listening to them very much. Keep up the good work. Shalom.
MIke,
One of the major things missed by all is that if you live in the land many of the problems go away. In regards to other people working, this is a problem, but the Torah did say that all have to rest meaning that we have to find a way around it in the world that we live in. As a Jew that visits other countries I find this to be a big problem, so its not from the Torah end or the way it is explained but from man and the way he wants to live. The dissection is due to the fact that we need to deal with new realities that the Torah does not speak about directly.
Mike,
I forgot to answer the actual answer you need: keep the heat going, this is a danger and we do not see in the Torah a command to endanger yourself. When it comes to the people who run places, it is none of your concern, they do not follow Torah and have no will to do so. I know you might disagree with this but we do not see in Torah that all have to follow it but only the Hebrews and those who choose to do so from the nations. The reality is that we are still in desparation and not all is ideal, do as much as you can and hope that this will change soon.
ok…i’m pressing “1” ……
🙂
please do a lesson on: “The stopping point of traditions & the orthodox world & Different jewish groups”
todah. thank you
We humans seem to twist ourselves into so many knots about every subject. There is the Letter-of-the-Torah, and There is the Spirit-of-the-Torah.
Our Father is about balance. A balanced life is a life that is keeping things in perspective. For example, alcohol consumption. We should not become drunk, but there is nothing in Torah that states we shouldn’t drink a beverage with alcohol. We should work, but we should also rest.
“To touch a woman” from a Biblical perspective – strikes me as “having the intention of pleasuring myself with a female that is not my wife.” Not an unintentional passing or sitting next to someone. It’s a heart issue. Where is your heart?
If we get “out of balance” with the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law, we lose our chance to live our lives fully. We miss the chance to allow YHWH to reach down through us and possibly touch another life that could use our Father’s uplifting love.
Shalom
Jono, LOVE the new tunes at intro and finish. Is that your sis? Beautiful! Good stuff…
Great program Jono. Yoel as always you present your insights well and me with much food for thought. Thanks again.
I do have one question regarding ‘thou shall work six days’ THEN rest on the seventh. I know over here in Babylon there is a 5 day work week and most rest on two days. Am I to take this as we must work six days before we rest? Or is this written in a way that just means we have six days to do work before the rest? Hope that made sense.
David,
Nice one! The answer is that we are allowed to work six days, not that we have to work. I would say that here in Israel many bosses think it means we have to work six days (LOL).
I understand that before entering the temple the attendants performed a “mikveh”. Was not that considered work and if not at that time considered work now.
If I could say thanks in a better way I would but thanks
This format is by far the most open and honest place of dialogue
That I have found.
The humor, the honesty, the history, the cultural back ground
Is FANTASTIC ….
Bless you ALL
& the music I could listen to FOREVER!
Awesome teaching, I just got to listen to it (10/28/12 pagan dates 🙂 I don’t know much but I have learned that if I want to understand the scriptures I have to read the entire chapter and sometimes more than one Ch. in order to get the entire context of it, in this case Exd 35 I think is very obvious within the first 2 verses that it is in the context of kindling a fire for the purpose of work (and perhaps even cooking as it involves work) This is why I think so since I am not a Hebrew expert; Exd 35 Happened in the wilderness and they lived in tents, there was no electricity then so they ALL needed fire for light (within your tents or even at the tent of meeting) to either read Torah or simply be able to walk around your tent, eat, etc. No fire for light back then it would have been very dark, another point is the issue of to stay warm as other here have brought up. They needed warmth period, and they had to kindle a fire for that, or even if they try to keep it burning before Shabbat so they didn’t have to kindle it or start it, it would be non-sense, cause if for some reason is a very windy/snowy/rainy night and the fire went out, what happened then? Did they freeze to death? No way would Yehovah have been this cruel! This to me is very clear. Do not kindle a fire on Shabbat for the purpose of your day to day work activities! Another point is the command of the priest to continually burn the fire (I think the menorah in the temple) granted, the fire was always going prior/during and after Shabbat (always burning! right? well how did they keep it going? by adding wood to it and fanning it or whatever you do to keep it going 24/7365; therefore, Yehovah would not have a set of double standards even though HE could if HE wants to, HE is in charge of everything, but I think HE would lead by example and not change the rules when it came down to keep the fire going at the tent of meeting! Anyway, I just wanted to give my 2 cents and if I am wrong then I hope to hear the right way, after all I don’t know nothing other than I also am trying to live by TORAH, serve Yehovah with all my heart/soul and mind! And I am open to corrections/teaching. As Ruth said “Your God is my God, and Your People is my People” I love your teaching (Yoel) and love Truth2u.org Look forward to listen to the rest of this teaching!
Hi Yono and Yoel,
I live in Germany and the problem I have is the time when Shabbat starts. The tradition says after sunset when you can see the first three stars. The problem here is that in summer it won’t get dark until after 10pm and in winter it’s around 4pm. What can I do?
Shalom from Germany
Hi I have another question regarding Pesach. Some say it’s the 24th and others the 25th of this month? Who is right?