Baruch ben Daniel – The Aramaic Debate Examined
KARAISM & NEHEMIA GORDON by Baruch ben Daniel
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Shalom Mishpocha, I forgot to mention on air that Australians can save a small fortune in shipping charges through: Beit Gan-Eden Messianic Community in Queensland, Australia. http://WWW.BGEMC.ORG Please give a big SHALOM to Tamar & Malakai (Robyn and Ken). May our Father YHWH use all our service for His Glory and Honour. B’shem Y’shua.
Very interesting dialogue. Daniel stood up well under pressure. In my opinion, Jono pressed a bit too much into the character of Daniel, because the accusations could be true even if brought by an axe-murderer instead of someone who merely spoke a bit emotionally and then later deleted some words from the internet–words that do not even rise to the level of slander or libel.
The interview could have been better if Mr. Daniel’s background was better brought out. For example, he seems to state that he is a Jew, but it is not clear what exactly this means. Since he is a third generation Yeshua believing Torah observer, he has a unique perspective.
It is clear that Gordon’s scholarship is valuable no matter what the outcome of this debate. It is also easy to overlook any problems regarding proselytization because we like Mr. Gordon. It is clear that two issues are involved here, one regarding proselytization, and another regarding Gordon seeming to be aloof with Mr. Daniel.
The two witnesses issue does not have to be two different people converted to be a Karaite, which is a flaw in the reasoning. Mr. Daniel is worried about his friend, and deserves some kind of reply. GLC has a responsibility to provide safeguards. Openness and honesty, should win the day.
I would advice Mr. Gordon and his friend to seize the opportunity to debate or get on TV with this issue. This is a unique opportunity to dialobue about issues that people need to hear about. From Gordon’s perspective he may seem to be singled out. But from the perspective of people around the world, who have little insight into the clash of religous perspectives prevelent in Jeruslaem, this is insightful material.
Would love to hear more from Mr. Daniel about the Aramaic text.
Your interview styles is completely outstanding, Jono!
The interview was courtroom like, dramatic and thrilling! A good grilling of the accused that reminded me of TV courtroom drama between a hostile District Attorney, voice dripping with suspicion and disdain for the accused on the stand. Shalom
You held up well to the examination Baruch, I wonder if it will be like that when we are called to give account of every idle word! I better be more careful what I say.
I love Yeshua!
To the contrary Steven,
Jono was absolutely right on in his interview. Though some of the questions were a bit tough, in light of things written and spoken by Daniel, the questions were not out of line.
Jono spoke firmly, yet in love. I was impressed.
Thank you Jono for a great interview. I know have a little better understanding of the entire disagreement, yet, there is still much to be learned about it.
I am humbled by the entire situation. It behooves us to be very careful about our choice of words and to “be angry and sin not.” We should allow ourselves to be rid of that initial tendency to respond in a hot headed, angry way.
I am guilty of it myself on occasions. I believe it is a human trait that only the Ruach HaKodesh can rid us of if we will let Him.
It appears to me that now would be a very good time for all parties to meet, talk out their misunderstandings in private, then jointly appear before the audience that has watched this unfortunate situation develop and have a discussion in love and be done with it. No disputations that harken back to very unfortunate times in the middle ages and no bickering like the denominations do.
The Khboris codex is actually unremarable and only contains 22 books versus the Western NT which is 27 books. It is carbon dated to the 12 th century. I personally can’t trust this guys info.
David, what do you mean to the contrary? I am sure you can make your opinion without bringing me into it as though we are on different sides when we probably are not.
I was making an illustrative comparison in light hearted jest (thus the shalom and smiley face) between a lawyer/witness and Jono/guest. The many times Jono asked “did you say” and “let me clarify” and “just so I am clear” is examination language often used in a courtroom. That’s how it came across to me. The talk of how many witnesses were present, the vetting them, etc. all helped me form my opinion. All we lacked is the verdict and I guess “we the jury” are still out.
I have heard many of Jono’s interviews and this is the first time I have heard him use an accusatory tone of voice or make anyone give an account line upon line of comments he made in the past, or show suspicion of his guest as though he might not be telling the exact truth. That’s grilling or pressing a witness and it came across to me. As long as the guest is ok with it, I’m ok with it. I’m never said he did not have some reason or need to handle the interview that way. I kinda liked the interview the way it went.
I never said or indicated that Jono did not have a good interview so I wonder if you deliberately misunderstand my comments for some reason.
By the way Jono, I’ve said it before….you make a great program, your very well prepared and you are never boring. I love your different styles, moods, subjects, guests and you are very brave and willing to go where few will.
I thought Jono was firm, pressing and slightly suspicious – but also seemed to want to encourage and foster reconciliation. Blessed are the peacemakers.
We all need to be careful here.
Mr. Daniel is our brother – who believes in and follows Y’shua Messiah.
Mr. Gordon denies Y’shua is the Messiah.
Please do NOT jump to conclusions about me stating it so plainly. And do not read things into my words.
I am not saying we mustn’t be kind or loving toward unbelievers. I’m just pointing out we must be fair and loving to our BRETHREN TOO!
Shalom Steven,
Forgive me if I offended you. That was not intended. Yes, I disagreed with you, but I did not know it was in jest. Sorry my computer did not display smiley faces etc., only text.
Brothers can disagree without offending. I meant no offense.
Lisa,
Shalom my Sister, Fancy meeting you here. LOL!
Perhaps you can help keep me out of trouble.
I agree with everything you said. So, amein Sister!
Hope all is well in merry ole England!
David
Jono –right on! You did not use any sort of accusatory tone whatsoever. I am so glad to hear someone taking into account this person who HAS been accusatory against Gordon and Johnson.
And, for the record, “Aramaic Jew” is not derogatory unless you are ashamed to be either an Aramaic or a Jew. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with calling into account what benDaniel publicly posted to the internet. He is most certainly derogatory, rude, lacking in self-control.
Thanks…again Jono–loved the program
Appreciated this chat with Baruch. Being of a cynical nature, and a typical Aussie who is not fond of charismatic verbage, I tend to view with suspicion those who are use that charisma to their own end. I was therefore glad to hear that Baruch does not fall into that category. I think the internet can be used as a tool or a weapon and all too often it is used as a weapon, as well as garner support for oneself.
The only criticism of the interview was that perhaps it wasn’t helpful to use the word ‘character’ against Baruch because we all suffer from character flaws but thankfully ours aren’t displayed over the internet. The word ‘character’ was not meted out to Nehemia or Keith, even though Nehemia’s writings also contained a lot of emotive language, although more hidden and subtle. Word power can also be a weapon. The passover lamb went to the slaughter silently and sometimes I think silence and being prepared to be ‘misunderstood’ is a wise path.
As Lisa rightly pointed out, Baruch is our brother in Yeshua, as is Keith Johnson, and therefore reconciliation is most desired between them.
May the Spirit of Truth continue to circumcise all our hearts as the Living Torah, the Passover Lamb, Yeshua our Redeemer enables. And may the name of YHWH be exalted and praised.
Yeshua said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘lord, lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven…For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother…” Matthew 7:21 & 12:50.
Shalom David, you did not offend me. I just feel that we are not against each other or actually in disagreement, I value what you say and do not want to be opposed unless we really are in disagreement over something, but I don’t think we are.
I think we see things as brothers would, but we say things differently and you’re friendlier, I’m more like a porcupine all sharp and pointed.
I haven’t listened to the interview, nor do I have any intention of listening. I think it’s most unfortunate that valuable air time is given (wasted?) to a disagreement between these two men. Basically, it’s none of my business.
I can understand how Jono got involved, having given Nehemia air-time then he would also have to extend the courtesy to Baruch out of fairness (a “fair-go” as we say here in Sinim, a Naphtalite trait I believe).
I do hope that Nehemia and Baruch bring their disagreement to a satisfactory conclusion, but whether they do or not is, basically, supremely unimportant to me.
I am saddened though as this time could have been given to other interviews which relate to matters of much more importance. I spent my time instead listening to Steven Collins on Twisted Radio, and Yair Davidy at Britam. Jono, you should get these guys on your radio show, let’s get some meat here, though I’m sure you will get a stream of complaints from those who don’t believe that we have anything to gain or learn from our brother Judah.
Matthew 12:49 and he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
I love being a disciple because I am the brother of Yeshua.
Awesome!
Mat 10:32 “Everyone, therefore, who shall confess Me before men, him I shall also confess before My Father who is in the heavens.
Mat 10:33 “But whoever shall deny Me before men, him I shall also deny before My Father who is in the heavens.
Zachary, I’m far from being any kind of scholar, but since my transition out of constantinianism and further study of scripture that’s how I have come to understand the timeline of the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua.
Shalom all!
Please hear me out on this?
We or, a majority of us have been rooted and grounded in the Constantinian brand of Christianity. That brand of religious dogma has put into our hearts and our minds that if we do not accept and publicly proclaim the Constantinian, Roman, Greek, understanding of “Jesus” and bow the knee to the liturgy, the creeds, the declarations of devotion etc. etc. to the Greek Jesus, that we are denying the Christ!
Excuse me brethren, but I do deny the Christ of the Roman Church.
I have given my ear to the doorpost and the awl and have become a bondservant to Yeshua HaMashiach. I know He has come in the flesh as Messiah ben Yoseph and will return real soon as Messiah ben David!
If we believe that He is indeed the “Living Torah” then we must be willing to accept the fact that there are some of our Jewish brethren who accept the same Torah concepts and beliefs that we do.
Nehemiah, to the best of my understanding and to what my heart tells me, believes in Mashiach! He believes in the future coming of Mashiach. He believes that Mashiach is going to do all the things that we also believe that Mashiach will do. And so on and so on etc. etc. etc.
He is our brother, regardless of how many proof texts that are thrown out there. He may very well be in a point in his walk that he has less light on some issues and more light on others.
It is time that we put away our anti-semitic ravings about this “brother” and turn our hearts to prayer for him that the vail will be removed from his eyes regarding Yeshua the Branch and at the same time the vail will be lifted from our eyes regarding many issues that keep our Jewish brothers from knowing that Yeshua is indeed Mashiach.
Let’s not reject this man!!! This is indeed a rare opportunity to bring together the two houses, at least in a small way! We need to stop with this rejection attitude and turn our hearts to prayer and fasting and try and bring our brothers in Judaism to the knowledge that Yeshua is indeed Mashiach as Yhudah brings us to the knowledge that it is in fact this type of attitude that keeps them away, and that we have a lot to learn from them.
I may not have the ability to say everything that needs to be said on this subject, however, maybe this little post will open a dialog. This is a subject that we cannot continue to ignore. Those with their foot still in the Constantinian camp needs to pray and dig in and learn just how far the Roman Church has drug us away from the truth.
Nehemiah is my brother! He believes in Mashiach probably more than we who have come out from Constantine do. He is just not ready to accept that that Constantinian Jesus we all try to drive down his throat is indeed his Messiah. Let’s give him a chance to grow and lets give the Ruach HaKodesh a chance to bring Nehemiah to where He wants him and try to stay out of His Way and not be a problem when we should be a help.
I am sooooooo thankful to Nehemiah that each month, I receive the new moon report. I have the report of when the barley is Aviv. I know from the heavenly bodies that YHVH put in the heavens just when His Moedim are! I am able to meet with Him on the appointed times thanks to Nehemiah Gordon who sends me an email, complete with pictures of when the first sliver of the new moon is sighted over Isra’el!
I meet with my ABBA because Nehemiah Gordon tells me when the appointed time begins. Praise Yah!
Those who want to continue to crucify Nehemiah Gordon, You should be warned. That, YHVH is using this man whether you like it or not and YHVH will open his eyes to what He wants Nehemiah to know at the time appointed by Him. Then if Nehemiah rejects truth, well, it is the same as if we deny the truth. His heart beats just as mine does. He loves YHVH just as I do. He wants to see Mashiach come just as I do.
Thank you Nehemiah for making my walk with Yeshua a deeper and richer walk by knowing when to meet with Him according to His Moedim and not at pagan holidays such as easter and christmas.
Jono: These discussions have been enlightening. Why not invite a representative from GLC to speak to the issue? Ultimately, they are the ones who made the decision to cancel Mr. Johnson’s programs, but no one seems to have a clear answer as to “why”.
The disciples of Yeshua are interested in what Yeshua thinks about a subject. That’s why we post his words. Where did Yeshua label anyone anti-Semitic because they teach his words?
Yeshua said his words are Spirit and they are Eternal Life to those who follow them. He is the Duet 18 Prophet that YHVH has placed his words in his mouth and speaks the word of YAH in his name.
I never consider Yeshua’s words as “proof text” but the commandments of YHVH and life to those who will try to listen to them past their own feelings. Yeshuas words are a last chance to ‘hear oh Israel’ and we won’t get another. The door is closing.
Every true disciple of Yeshua struggles with the content of his message. I agree that those raised up in the Constantine camp along with those raised in Judaism have a hard time coming to the central truths of Yeshuas message. It’s hard for you guys (I was raised Torah observant) to accept the truth of what Yeshua is saying, mostly because you did not learn Jesus truths in the Constantine camp and then as HR go directly to Torah (which you need) and finally after some time, some of you finally get around to the question “what exactly did the Duet 18 Prophet teach?”.
Yeshua’s message is a hard core message, a sword of division between family members. We have to forsake everything to follow him. If we love anyone more we are not worthy, even Nehemia Gordon. We can’t have two masters. We must leave the world and become separate unto Holiness. That is why Yeshua says few will follow the path that leads unto eternal life.
On the one hand it is love and compassion and mercy and he says “come unto me all you heavy laden and I will give you rest”. It’s the other hand of his message, or the second side of his two edged sword, that we all have a hard time with. The hand that says “depart from me, I never knew you”.
No one has rejected Nehemia and that never was the problem and Satan would like everyone to believe he has been injured somehow. Nehemia has heard the word of truth and rejected it as the truth. The only real help we can be to Nehemia is warn him of the wrath to come and give him the message of John the Baptist “Repent and be Baptized for the Remission of Sins, bring forth fruits worthy of repentance”.
No other message will help Nehemia. God is not going to save him just because you fast and pray because he does not force himself on anyone. Nehemia must choose life by eating the bread of heaven who is Yeshua or he will perish.
I am sorry if anyone reject Yeshuas words and some seem to think they know better than Yeshua on what is taking place and what will happen shortly.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Will anyone stand in the way of the work Yeshua came to do?
I like to read the dialogue that is along the lines of scripture rather than the thoughts concepts and ideas of men.
Matthew 13: And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, that is why blindness has come to Israel.
There are none so blind as those who will not see! Our friend Nehemia Gordon has clearly repented of Orthodox Traditions and embraced holly and only the Torah, which is exactly the repentance that Johanan the Baptiser and Yeshua our Messiah taught.
I am sure he (Nehemia) understands the mikvah of cleansing (repentance) better than any of us who have known about baptism for most of our lives.
You waste your time trying to convert Jews to a religion they rightly hate. Yeshua instructed his disciples to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. You follow exactly the same course trying to convert Jews as Christianity (the Constantinian Religion) has done for 17 centuries. Do not learn the ways of the pagan Constantinians, and go learn the ways of YHVH. I am sure Nehemia is quite willing to
guide us in our understanding of Torah if we are only willing, and it will not be far off what Yeshua and his followers taught.
Stop demanding and trying to convince Nehemia or any other Jew of how righteous and just your Messianic cause is. JUST STOP IT! Nehemia has the ear of YHVH and YHVH has Nehemia’s ear, which is probably more than can be said of the stupidly arrogant who demand Nehemia repents and falls on his face before Yeshua.
Those who are healthy (ie Karaites and other Torah observant people) have no need of a physician, only those who have strayed far from the truth (ie we who have recently escaped from the pagan Constantinian and other religions of this world). (Sorry Nehemia, I know you have a problem with your neck, I hope YHVH heals that for you real soon!) We are the ones Yeshua our Messiah came to save, now quit preaching to the converted (Torah observant) and get out there after the lawless ones if you want to convert someone!
Lisa,
you said just what I was thinking.
Jono,
I didn’t know you had it in you. Boy you were tough! You can really think on your feet, great interview. I think Baruch had some good points that I would like to hear more of perhaps in another, more relaxed, interview.
Even if he raised some valid points on which to question the “Shem Tov Matthew” I would still tend to think the original writings were in Hebrew. That is really just based on intuition at this point. It would be interesting to hear more points about why he thinks the originals were in Aramaic.
“Politics, Religion, and Money” Baruch ben Daniel
I use to come to this site to listen, learn and be encouraged.
There were those speakers that I disagreed with but usually found something of worth to hear.
Recently however, I am becoming very discouraged.
Satan is very good at what he does that I can see.
Accusations being slung, hateful name calling, ….etc.
All happening from both sides of the camp.
It hurt me to be called anti-semitic just because I disagree with Nehemiah being called a brother and have shown scriptural reasons for this.
I love the jewish people. I attempt to defend them when possible.
But when I am told that there is no need for my Messiah that is where I have to put my foot down.
I may have to give up this site for my spiritual well being and that breaks my heart.
I do wonder though – you condemn the constantinian church for show the wrong Messiah but then you uplift Nehemia Gordon for doing the same thing.
It appears to me that Nehemia has a benefit that we grafted in ones don’t he has the Torah from the roots. He didn’t have to unlearn constantine although I realize he had to unlearn orthodox but he still was taught Torah. Unfortunately he doesn’t have the sacrifice of Messiah for cleansing and he HAS CHOSEN to refuse that sacrifice.
What blood sacrifice will he take before YHWH at the day of judgement?
Jono,
I have enjoyed your programs the past year. I appreciate all the hard work it has taken. I will pray that YHWH humble me to see His truth and not my own before I decide to leave this site.
I pray for all of you that you each seek YHWH’s truth and not your own.
Shalom
Yeshuas message is a two edged sword. He spoke of Life and Death, blessing and cursing, reward and woe. He says on the one hand “come unto me and have life” and on the other hand “depart from me into death”. We tend to love the message of life and resurrection, fullness of joy and the fruits of the Spirit, but many who believe in Yeshua never come to the fullness of his teachings, and when it comes to death they are in one stage or another of grief, most often denial because great death and destruction has come and is coming again upon the earth.
1) Denial is the first stage of grief. Our minds want to block out the reality of what is happening. It’s just too much to contemplate that most people who have lived will be resurrected unto the second death.
2) The second stage is anger. We get angry over the death of loved ones. Grief brings up strong emotions.
3) Third is Bargaining with God. Like Abraham bargained over Sodom “will you destroy the righteous with the wicked?” We begin to have thoughts like “if I pray and fast surely God will not destroy the wicked” or “if I could just show them Christ through my righteous living” or “if I could become a better teacher or preacher, they will see the goodness of Yeshua in me and repent”.
4) Depression or feelings of sadness. We grapple with our helplessness. We see Yeshua as a man of sorrows because he could not save the unwilling from death.
5) Finally acceptance of the reality of loss. Once we accept the loss we turn our attention to the living and “follow me and let the dead bury their dead”.
As Disciples of Yeshuas teachings, each of us at some point has to Deal with the death Yeshua talked about. Sadly, death has happened and will happen. Yeshua taught some hard things about the dead and the living. A mature disciple will eventually understand Yehsua’s teachings on death and come to acceptance.
1) Matthew 22 says God is not the God of the dead and those who do not come to Yeshua have no life, they are actually the walking dead.
2) There is a resurrection of the unjust for judgment then the second death.
3) Brother will deliver up brother to death.
4) The Father will deliver up his child to death.
5) Children will rise up against parents and have them put to death.
6) The scribes and Pharisees were full of death and uncleanness.
7) Everyone is dead in Adam we are the walking dead. “for in Adam all died”
8) Only those who hear the voice of the Son of God shall live “The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”
9) Those who ate manna in the wilderness are dead.
10) The greater majority of people will not be resurrected unto life but have chosen the wide gate and broad path. “many there be that go that way”.
11) There is an everlasting destruction to unbelievers in the Son of God. “there will be weeping and nashing of teeth”.
Sorry, no smiley face in my bullet points
Latrece,
I am perceiving from you wording that you are referring to what I wrote. If I am wrong then ignore this, but I used the words anti-semitic and constantinian in my post.
I believe you have missed my point. I was not referring to you or anything that you wrote.
I was not defending Nehemiah in his denial of Yeshua. He is wrong and we all know it, that is, we all who know Yeshua.
My point was meant to be that we need to allow him time to progress. That he does believe in Mashiach. There is not doubt about that. But, he does not believe that Yeshua is Mashiach. I just believe he is in a learning curve and we should all allow him to continue and allow the Ruach HaKodesh to do His Work and identify Yeshua to Nehemiah as He did us.
There are many in the constantinian churches that are very anti-semitic and that is what I meant. I do not know you or what you believe so I could not have possibly been referring to you.
I know I am not the best writer, nor am I very good at making my point. But, I am a brother in Yeshua HaMashiach and would never take a stand for anyone against Messiah.
I am not certain how I may have offended you but you can be sure that that was not my intention.
Blessings B’HaShem Yeshua HaMashiach
David
Jhn 5:38 “But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
Jhn 5:39 “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of ME.
Jhn 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
David
I appreciate your apology.
Yes it was the blanket statement that you made which was one of the things I was referring to. It is so easy to take what people say and put our own context on it without seeing what they mean.
I apologize that I misunderstood and took it so personally.
However, that is not the only thing I was referring to, I am hurt by the anger that everyone is having towards one another. This is not of the Ruach. It seems that people are not listening to each other or considering what the other person is saying. People just jump off half cocked and blather out what ever is in their head, which by the way scripture says we aren’t to do that. Instead we are to ‘shut up’ so we can hear the Ruach speak and then if necessary speak.
There are very few people who can speak without hesitation and still keep their tempers in check. I know that I am not one of them so I try to hold off on responses here til I consider what is said. I think that Baruch demonstrated what a quick response to anger can cause and we have all been guilty of that so why do we judge so harshly.
I personally have no issues with Nehemiah as a person and I hope that he does come to the truth. However, for me he is no different that the preachers in the pulpit with doctorate degrees.
They have head knowledge but without the Ruach to show discernment of that knowledge it is of limited use. Their teachings will be mixed with the worlds views and
denominational / religious group views.
I do believe that YHWH can use Nehemiah. He uses lots of people who don’t believe in Him or His son.
It still means I have to carefully guard what Nehemiah says.
I test all things by scripture, or at least try to. I would prefer not to have to be so concerned about that on websites that are for those who believe in Yahshua. There is enough differences in views as it is without adding to it the lack of belief.
Do we listen to a muslim who has degrees in the scriptures.
I know I wouldn’t because of his lack of belief.
There are lots of people who say they believe in God but they don’t believe in Yahshua – do I blindly follow them.
Many thought they followed Torah during Yahshua’s time but he told them that they did not do so inwardly because they would not leave all and follow him.
My main purpose here is to learn what Yahshua said and did so that I can do the same. I don’t care to be politically correct because that generally goes against Yahshua’s teachings but neither do I want to be hateful to others just for the sake of spouting off my mouth.
Sorry I have rambled a bit but my exposure to other Torah believers is limited and it feels good to share occasionally.
Great questions and good job, Jono. You were fair in trying to get him clearly on record with what you asked. I think you have a talent. I especially liked your question (not answered well) about why he single out Nehemia over the Masoretic when nearly all Baruch’s peers use the same mss.? His answer left me believing there is a vendetta against Nehemia for not answering him. I think Nehemia is wise to practice the proverb “don’t answer a fool according to his folly or you’ll be like him” with these Aramaic primacists.
I was amazed how the guest admitted several times to “instigating” the GLC cancellation, as if he sees nothing wrong with such interference or his fear (not love)-based motivation behind doing it.
Was it just me or is he overly angry and scared about the Masoretic text and Shem Tov text “bad influence” compared to the Aramaic texts he advocates? (As well, if the episode that prompted the interference taught Yehovah instead of the Hebroid Yahweh that he uses, he may be overly concerned about that, too. A combative Sacred Namer?) To quote Yeshua about missing yud’s and neglect to follow his teaching on loving actions, is missing the boat.
Of course, Hebrew Roots gives already culturally judgmental Christians 613 more reasons to judge and smite their brother (614 if you count manuscript primacy wars). So really, I don’t judge Baruch. He’s a product of his environment just doing what Christians and Messianics mostly learn to do: major in the minors.
Nehemia may not be a believer, but he puts most of these believers to shame with his integrity. He refuses to stoop to their level, and unlike them feels fine to let others believe what they will (even in Yeshua who he does not believe in) and practices live-and-let-live. To me (and God) that example is more important than his Bible knowledge or scholarship.
Shalom Latrece,
You are right, I often am guilty of generalizations. I just start spilling what is in my heart and am not careful enough. YHVH forgive me?
I follow you on everything you are saying. I have the same cautions. I am very careful about what I read or listen to regarding Nehemia. But, I am also the same with Keith.
Nehemiah has the veil to Mashiach Yeshua, and Keith has had the vail to Torah. I don’t know where Keith stands on that right now.
But, I have been watching Nehemiah for a number of years. How many other Jews who deny Yeshua have you seen that the interest and go to the lengths that Nehemiah has for the Christian Churches or the Messianics? He has been totally honest from the beginning about his beliefs but still has put in many years of his life trying to help us understand the point of view from his side. Other Jews are hostile and unforgiving. Nehemiah is not.
This is the kind of thing that I mean when I defend him and say we must give the Ruach HaKodesh time to complete His work in Nehemiah. If we start attacking him as some have done it is likely that it will anger him and drive him further away. We don’t know if he will ever accept Yeshua, but if he doesn’t, I don’t want it to be because I or other Messianics or Christians have been harsh and rejecting. I try to think of him as my son. My son is not a believer either, but, I treat him with gentleness and love and patience and with much prayer. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves.
You are right! We need to guard our souls and be careful about who and what we allow in, but Yeshua would meet with the tax collectors and sinners, the pharisees and saducees. He was firm with them but he would eat with them and love them.
I hear you about the fights and quarrels. It is very sad. Most of it is misunderstandings but some is down right meanness. I have spoken out of line myself and have had to repent for it. I am sorry for that. We need to all be more loving in our exchanges. It is difficult to read others on the internet. We can’s see facial expressions and body language so it is easy to misunderstand. I pray YHVH helps me to be more gentle and loving and understanding.
I will pray for you tonight Latrece. I will add you to my list and I hope you will do the same for me. I will also try and pray for Nehemia and Keith and ben Daniel and Andrew Gabriel Roth, and Jono and all the posters. All my brothers and sisters throughout the whole earth. It is time we support one another! Days are growing shorter as we speak.
Baruch haba B’Shem YHVH/Yeshua! Blessed is He who comes in the Name of YHVH!
B’ahavta B’HaShem Yeshua!
David
Live and Let Live is a concept against Torah. We are commanded not to do what is right in our own eyes.
Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
Brother David: We don’t know if he will ever accept Yeshua, but if he doesn’t, I don’t want it to be because I or other Messianics or Christians have been harsh and rejecting.
Rest easy, it’s not left up to you! John 10: 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and my Father are one.
Shalom Smiley Face
Just a reminder to those who comment and engage with others in discussion:
Please be mindful not to use antagonistic language that may result in getting a rise from another listener who is commenting. By all means express what you believe, but refrain from laying or taking the bait that would escalate discussion to a heated level. Remember, we are allowed to disagree in as much as we are allowed to voice our own views.
Jono,
Thank you brother!
I am trying very hard to speak in a way that does not offend. Sometimes personalities make it nearly impossible. You have my email brother. If not I would be glad to give it to you.
Let me know if I am crossing lines and I will refrain from posting on your site. I do not wish to offend. Only to edify.
Blessings brother! I love your program, but I can enjoy it without commenting if that would please you.
David
Steven,
He left the ninety and nine and went out and searched until He found the lost sheep and then He placed it upon His shoulder and returned and had a celebration.
What happened that the lost sheep of the 100 did not hear the voice of the Shepherd? Why was he lost? Did he stop paying attention? Was he lured away by some enticing herb or bush that looked tasty? While he was munching, did the Shepherd and the other 99 leave, not knowing that the one was lost?
So many questions Steven!
But, we know that the Shepherd did not automatically condemn the lost one and say, “He should of heard my voice!” “Why did he stray?” “Why is he so blinded?” “Why has he heard the call of another Shepherd far off?” “He should have been paying closer attention!” “Let that disobedient, inattentive, carnal, self indulgent, sheep go to hell!”
No Steven, He went out and searched for the lost one until He found him.
I am so glad that He did not allow me to go on my way in the Constantinian religion, believing all the “lies” that my fathers had inherited.
After 57 years on the planet. After being raised in the Church of Christ, which is nearly the same as Catholic, After serving for nearly 10 years as a Methodist Pastor, being able to quote Scripture with the best of them. Being totally convinced that I was right. After being indoctrinated by all the Church Fathers. After being able to stand befor a congregation and quote Justin Martyr, Polycarp, Origin, etc. etc. After all of that Steven, my son and his wife and children began to attend a Seventh Day Adventist Church, and eat Kosher etc. I laughed at their ignorance! I was determined that I would show them the truth. I went to Justin Martyr and all the others. I quoted the first day of the week texts from the “New Testament” etc. I did it all Steven! And guess what? After about 6 months of trying to prove them wrong, I was the one who was proven wrong. YHVH chastised me and led me through His Word until I found the Truth! Praise Yah!!
The elderly Pastor was humbled. I was introduced to Torah. Written Torah!
If after all of that YHVH can bring me to Written Torah, then after all of Nehemiah’s life, He can bring him to the Living Torah!
I SO hear you Latrece, and I wholeheartedly agree with you, sister. You expressed things so well here. So, thank you for coming back and responding. It was a blessing to me.
Be encouraged. Stick to the Truth that IS Y’shua, our Messiah. Just be encouraged sister.
Shalom brother, David:).
I love ALL my brothers and sisters. I may like some as much as others – but I do love them. (David, I like you very much, btw, lol). 🙂
David, That was my point you just made. Seems like we are on the same side after all.
No one can stop what the Father is doing in Yeshua! All that are his will come unto him. Stop worriing that something someone says will keep a person out of the Kingdom. It’s a work of Yah.
I would like to bring up a theme I keep coming across on these blogs. The concept, that Yeshua is “the living torah” and is mathematically (absolutely) equal to “the written torah”.
The written Torah given to Moses is NOT equivalent to Yeshua. They are not the same thing.
I don’t know where the concept came about that “the written torah” is equal to the “living word” (Yeshua) but it is not an accurate equalized comparison, it does not balance. Let me try to explain:
Because of my mathematical mind I think in absolutes and equations. Because of the way my mind works I can see errors especially in verbal equation comparisons. I have the gift of discernment in that every word I hear must be placed into an equation. What am I trying to say? I have a balance scale in my head. When I place a concept onto the scales I can tell if it balances and thereby know if it is accurate. Scary place my head! Lol
An example would be that David equates 1) someone who does not know Yeshua and 2) believers who were ignorant of some of YHVH’s instructions to Israel. I see the equation does not balance because they are two different things, not equivalent. But his point is made that we are all still learning.
Yeshua is the word of Yah made flesh. The term “word of Yah” is not equivalent to “the written Torah”. Of the scriptures he said “they are those that speak of me” not “they are me”. When Yeshua say “I and the Father are one” he is making a verbal equation comparison, he is saying “The Father is one with his Word”.
Within the written Torah is contained Life and Death (the power of life and death is in the tongue-Torah would be equal to tongue). (“Behold this day I place before you life and death, choose life”) Yeshua is not “the death” but is “the life” portion of the written Torah and must be chosen, we are commanded to choose life. Our commandment is NOT “choose life and death, blessing and cursing” which is the written Torah. Our commandment held within the written Torah is “choose life”. Big difference.
Let me say it another way. It’s like the Garden of Eden. The entire garden contains the Serpent, the tree of life, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, other trees, YHVH, mankind male and female and sin.
Wisdom CAN be placed in an equality comparison with the tree of life. Within the tree is healing, wisdom, life.
Wisdom CANNOT be placed in an equality comparison with the entire garden because within it sin was performed. Sin is not wise.
One can see that Yeshua corrected Moses instruction “the written Torah” on divorce as well as other items. He says “it was not so from the beginning” “and I tell you” and makes it clear it is not for “any reason”.
Of the written Torah Yeshua said “Moses did not give you this bread” and Yeshua said “It is my Father who gives you this bread sent down from heaven”.
I said all of that to say this: The written Torah given to Moses is NOT equivalent to Yeshua. They are not the same thing. To have “the written Torah” does not equate to having the “living word of Yah”.
But to fulfill the written Torah is to obey the commandment to “Choose Life” and we know that is Yeshua whom if we choose we have the way, the truth and the life.
No man who rejects Yeshua is obeying the commandment to “choose life”.
A man uses a map to get to a certain mountain. The map is not the mountain. The Torah is our spiritual map that will lead us to eternal life “Yeshua” but the spiritual map is not Yehsua.
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: For our God is a consuming fire
Grace and Shalom to all in the name of Yeshua the Mashiyach.
@curious Just so you know, there has been a battle on Wikipedia’s website over the Khabouris page. As you know anyone can edit pages there and somebody (maybe you) really wants to downplay the importance of the Khabouris. 😉 Everything on Wikipedia needs to be taken with a grain of salt because individual agendas sneak in everywhere.
As explained in the first 3 minutes of the radio show, the colophon dates the Khabouris to 165 CE. Let me add this: As pages became worn out from use, they were replaced over the years. So, some pages will be older than others, but the colophon shows the date of the original. So, the surviving Khabouris codex is a copy of an original from 165 CE. Some pages are carbon dated to 1000 CE and others are dated to 400 CE. That is, if one gives carbon dating any relevancy at all.
The remarkable thing about the Khabouris is:
1) Just like the Dead Sea Scrolls, it verifies the legitimacy of the other manuscripts we already have.
2) As a recent finding it has brought publicity to the body of manuscripts already discovered, namely the 360 extant Peshitta NT manuscripts. The “Golden Age” of Aramaic scholarship in the West had passed and perhaps YHWH brought the discovery to light for such a time as this, before the end.
Now to answer your 22 book objection: It is no secret that the canon of the Church of the East (COE) has 22 books. However, that is not to say that they disrespect the other 5, but rather that their standards of acceptance were much higher than those in the West. Namely, the COE received the 22 directly from the hands of the Apostles. Obviously, it’s kind of difficult for John to make such a delivery if he’s in exile on the island of Patmos. Therefore, other manuscripts such as Crawford will have to suffice and the 5 books there read just like an original Aramaic rather than a translation from Greek.
It is correct to say that Shem Tob Matthew is a translation from Greek and has nothing to do with the Peshitta. Same with the “Old Syriac” manuscripts.
It is also possible that the Aramaic NT comes from a Hebrew original. However, since no such original has survived, we will just have to make do with the 360 Aramaic Peshitta manuscripts which have been uncovered. Lots of burning going on in Jerusalem around 70 CE and I’m sure many valuable scrolls perished.
So I thank YHWH for the Khabouris, it simply adds weight to the 360 and the Peshitta as a whole since it is exactly the same text, except for spelling variants. Gotta look at the colophon!
The AENT translation is not based upon the Khabouris, it was instigated in part by it. The AENT is based on the 1905 Critical Edition with footnotes to point out the rare places where the Khabouris was retained instead.
And as for 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation, those came from the Crawford, far as I can tell. By the way these books barely made it into the Western Canon, but I, Baruch and Andrew Roth agree that they should be there. The COE also keeps these 5 in high regard, even if they did not receive them directly by the hand of the Apostles.
So anyways, I just wanted to add to the discussion with some actual facts about the text itself. Curious, you better dig deeper than wikipedia if you want to find Truth.
Shalom, shalom, b’shem Yeshua 🙂
For full disclosure, I am a distributor of the Aramaic English New Testament (AENT).
Steven,
Your way of comparison is interesting, however, it is flawed in that it doesn’t allow for interpretation. It is black and white.
When I say “Yeshua is the Written Torah.” I do not mean it literally. What I mean is, He came to display in person what obedience to Written Torah should look like.
It is as if ABBA is telling us, I have told you! I have written it down for you, now I will draw you a picture so that you will be without excuse.
Yeshua was ask, “which is the greater commandment of all the commandments?” He replied first from the Sh’ma, Deuteronomy 6:4, “Sh’ma Isra’el, YHVH Eloheinu, YHVH echad! (Hear Isra’el, the Lord our God is One God.) When He quoted that, all the context of that is a part of His teaching. That is to love YHVH your Eloheim with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Then He quoted from Leviticus 20:18, “V’ahavta L’rayacha Kamocha.” (Love your fellow as yourself.) (paraphrases mine)
What He was teaching us is that all the Torah is wrapped up in these two. Every commandment finds its ultimate completion in these. If we follow these we will keep Torah perfectly.
Yeshua was the walking talking picture of that keeping of Torah perfectly. If we copied Him we would have no need to check the written to see if we are doing it right. He was perfect love both of the Father and of His fellows. He is the Living Torah!
Also, He never corrected the Written Torah. He corrected the misinterpretation of the Written Torah. That is what He meant by “I have come to fulfill Torah.” I have come to fill it up with its true meaning. Had the Children of Isra’el kept the spirit of Torah, there would be no need for divorce. It would be as it was intended from the beginning. One man, one wife, forever. The Torah never needed correction. He is the Author of Torah and had no need to correct what He instructed. The correction had to be in the hearts of man whose hearts had become as stone and ears that would not hear.
Shalom Mishpocha,
I appreciate all your thoughts and concerns. I’ve responded to some of your questions about Mr. Keith Johnson’s comments at: http://hebrewnewtestament.com/karaiteskeithjohnson.htm
Regarding the questions about Tanakh textual criticism I’ve posted some of Dr. Ginsburg’s notes at:
http://hebrewnewtestament.com/masoretic.htm
For info on the Khabouris Codex see:
http://hebrewnewtestament.com/khabouris.htm
Jono asked for scholarly papers regarding the Eastern Aramaic NT texts. I’m accumulating more and will post them when completed. In the meantime a short list of Scholars and publications are avail at:
http://hebrewnewtestament.com/aramaicscholars.htm
Todah rabbah,
Shalom U’Vrachot.
David – “Yeshua is the Written Torah.” I do not mean it literally
You wrote it literally. You used it literally when you called Yeshua “the Living Torah”. If you don’t mean a statement literally you might not want to write it literally. You confuse people like me. Smiley face shalom!
There are 3 types of comparison. Direct comparison, clarification comparison, and illustrative comparison.
Perhaps you were attempting to make an illustrative comparison between 3, Yeshua’s obedience to Yah’s instruction, the instructions in themselves, and Yeshua the person.
I think I get it now that you make it clear your direct comparison is actually meant to be an illustrative comparison? Smiley face
But having said that I have to say this: in a direct comparison between the 3 there are those things that are the same and those things that are different.
Thanks for the info Baruch, much appreciated 🙂
As for the teaching ‘Yeshua did not correct the Torah of Moses’
Yeshua corrected Moses in this way. ‘It was not so from the begining’ means that Moses had given an ordinance that was not intended. Yeshua makes it clear Moses allowed something that YHVH did not teach. The correction was “and I tell you” and “let not man put apart what God has put together”.
There are other corrections Yeshua made. It was not the “word of YHVH” that he was correcting. It was the deterioration of the “word of YHVH” that was corrected. Is it possible Moses would not be perfect with the commandments of YAH?
Look no further than the water in the rock. Moses was not perfect and made mistakes. Yeshua corrected Moses.