Baruch ben Daniel – The Aramaic Debate Examined

Disputation
KARAISM & NEHEMIA GORDON by Baruch ben Daniel

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77 Comments

  1. Baruch ben Daniel says

    Shalom Mishpocha,

    I appreciate all your thoughts and concerns. I’ve responded to some of your questions about Mr. Keith Johnson’s comments at: http://hebrewnewtestament.com/karaiteskeithjohnson.htm

    Regarding the questions about Tanakh textual criticism I’ve posted some of Dr. Ginsburg’s notes at:
    http://hebrewnewtestament.com/masoretic.htm

    For info on the Khabouris Codex see:
    http://hebrewnewtestament.com/khabouris.htm

    Jono asked for scholarly papers regarding the Eastern Aramaic NT texts. I’m accumulating more and will post them when completed. In the meantime a short list of Scholars and publications are avail at:
    http://hebrewnewtestament.com/aramaicscholars.htm

    Todah rabbah,

    Shalom U’Vrachot.

  2. Steven says

    David – “Yeshua is the Written Torah.” I do not mean it literally

    You wrote it literally. You used it literally when you called Yeshua “the Living Torah”. If you don’t mean a statement literally you might not want to write it literally. You confuse people like me. Smiley face shalom!

    There are 3 types of comparison. Direct comparison, clarification comparison, and illustrative comparison.

    Perhaps you were attempting to make an illustrative comparison between 3, Yeshua’s obedience to Yah’s instruction, the instructions in themselves, and Yeshua the person.

    I think I get it now that you make it clear your direct comparison is actually meant to be an illustrative comparison? Smiley face

    But having said that I have to say this: in a direct comparison between the 3 there are those things that are the same and those things that are different.

  3. jono vandor says

    Thanks for the info Baruch, much appreciated 🙂

  4. Steven says

    As for the teaching ‘Yeshua did not correct the Torah of Moses’

    Yeshua corrected Moses in this way. ‘It was not so from the begining’ means that Moses had given an ordinance that was not intended. Yeshua makes it clear Moses allowed something that YHVH did not teach. The correction was “and I tell you” and “let not man put apart what God has put together”.

    There are other corrections Yeshua made. It was not the “word of YHVH” that he was correcting. It was the deterioration of the “word of YHVH” that was corrected. Is it possible Moses would not be perfect with the commandments of YAH?

    Look no further than the water in the rock. Moses was not perfect and made mistakes. Yeshua corrected Moses.

  5. David Nowlin says

    Steven,
    There are many definitions of “Torah.” The definition I gave you in my last post of Yeshua as “Living Torah” is literal within that definition.
    Like I told you, Yeshua Himself said that within the definition He gave when ask, all the Torah and Prophets are contained. I just can’t see how that would confuse anyone. He is literally, the “Living Torah” in that He is the picture of keeping Torah without sinning. Sin is defined by John in his first epistle as “violation of Torah.” Yeshua was without sin, therefore He never violated Torah. I don’t know how much clearer I can make it.
    When I said, “I didn’t mean the literal Torah, I was referring to the written text. Certainly everyone knows that Yeshua is not the “Written Text.” However, He is the “Word.” In being the “Word” there could not be a Written Text if He were not Living Torah.
    You wrote, “Perhaps you were attempting to make an illustrative comparison between 3, Yeshua’s obedience to Yah’s instruction, the instructions in themselves, and Yeshua the person.”
    Yeshua was the author of Torah. Every word spoken from the Mountain was Yeshua speaking them. There can be know other explanation. It was not angels, i.e. messangers who spoke the Word. It was the Word who spoke the Word. It was the Father’s Will that the Word be spoken but it was Yeshua who spoke it.
    How then can it be possible that He not be the Living Torah?
    According to Genesis 1 and the gospel of John 1, it was Yeshua who spoke the entire creation into being. Constantinian religion has confused the world with their false doctrine of “trinity” and now it is difficult for people to see Yeshua as any other than some sort of sub species. It is unfortunate.
    The fact is, Yeshua is YHVH! There are the YHVH Father and YHVH Son. YHVH Ruach HaKodesh is the Ruach of both.
    “YHVH is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.”
    I feel like I am totally spinning my wheels with this. You come back to me with literary techniques of a secular nature to tell me what I am trying to say. I know what I am saying and why I am saying it. I perceive that the problem is with your failure to understand me.
    Perhaps we should love one another as brothers and agree that we have two different outlooks and leave it at that.

  6. Steven says

    Your way of comparison is interesting, however, it is flawed in that it doesn’t allow for interpretation. It is black and white.

    I don’t think we are supposed to have private interpretations or we will all believe something different. Maybe that’s why we have so many denominations, because everyone interpretes for themselves and does what is right in his own eyes.

    Just saying…..

  7. Steven says

    What the Torah could not do in that people are weak, the Father could accomplish by sending his son. Romans 8

    So you can see Torah is not equal to Yeshua. Compared directly, the Torah falls short of Yeshua. If life came by the Torah there would be no need of a Savior.

    In an illustrative comparison, believers are “the living Torah” because he is writing his instruction on our hearts and minds.

    David ‘If we copied Him we would have no need to check the written to see if we are doing it right.’

    My mathematical mind automatically sees this statement out of balance because some of us are Lepers, some of us are women, some of us are Levites or Priests, some of us have murdered, some of us are homosexual, some of us have taken vows, some of us are divorced, etc. Yeshua did not keep these laws because they did not pertain to him.

    We would still need to check the written to see if we are doing right.

  8. David Nowlin says

    Steven,
    You are a good brother as far as I can tell from the web. I can look back several years and see myself in your answers. I know you will see things differently in a few years if you persevere in the faith prayerfully and Yeshua tarries.
    You quoted, “What the Torah could not do in that people are weak, the Father could accomplish by sending his son. Romans 8”
    The part that Torah could not do is justify us with the Father for breaking it. That is where the weakness in the flesh comes into play. Torah is perfect both in its Written form and its Living form. It is us who are imperfect.
    I know I am failing to reach you. Perhaps it is because of your unique way of reasoning or perhaps it is because I am unqualified to teach you.
    You said, “In an illustrative comparison, believers are “the living Torah” because he is writing his instruction on our hearts and minds.”
    The operable words in that statement are, “is writing.” We cannot be called living Torah until the job is complete. Is it complete with you Steven? Is Torah written on your heart? Are you obedient to Torah?
    I can answer those questions for you Steven. The answer is no. That is why we need Yeshua. That is why He is at the Father’s Right Hand making intercession for us. We cannot possibly be what we disobey, so no Steven we are not living Torah. He is.
    I know I am not going to convince you because you do not want to be convinced. You may disagree with that statement but I dare say you don’t know yourself. That is not intended to be condescending or insulting. I mean it in the most loving and gentle way and I base it on many days of discussion with you.
    You said, “My mathematical mind automatically sees this statement out of balance because some of us are Lepers, some of us are women, some of us are Levites or Priests, some of us have murdered, some of us are homosexual, some of us have taken vows, some of us are divorced, etc. Yeshua did not keep these laws because they did not pertain to him.”
    You are forgetting who you are talking about. He created everyone you mentioned. Their sins are their own. “He was in ALL WAYS tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (caps mine) He knows the heart and the struggles of everyone you mentioned above. We are not discussing laws, we are discussing His instructions in Righteousness. He is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our salvation.
    I find it difficult to understand how you fail to see that He is your Creator. Because I cannot know your thinking process, it is very unlikely that I will understand you.
    Let’s be content that we are brothers and leave the Torah teaching to those called to do it. Shall we?
    Blessings Steven!

  9. David Nowlin says

    Jono,
    I would love to hear from Al and Tommie Cooper of GLC. Can you get an interview?

  10. David Nowlin says

    Jono,
    That is certainly very interesting. It brings up several areas of caution when dealing with claims of ancient codex.
    Such as, How much money is being made in the transliteration or translation of such codex? I know for certain that at about $60,00, which is what I paid for my copy of the AENT recently, it would not take many to become very lucrative. Of course I don’t know how many copies a printing involves, but it is of note that my copy is from a 4th printing. So certainly this codex has been around and around financially. Wow! what a windfall for a lot of folk.
    According to claims made in my copy, page 892, this appears to be the very same manuscript as the Yonan Codex.
    I believe if it were my call, I would see to it that a copy of the letter you posted above by way of link, is forwarded to GLC.
    Claims are made in the AENT that have obviously been contradicted by that letter. Such as, “the same language that Jesus spoke.” And, “Its colophon which ascribes it to the first decade of the 3rd century, makes it the oldest Syriac-Aramaic known to exist.” It is my opinion that the content of that letter should have been included in the appendixes of the AENT and made available to people prior to purchase. While the publisher of the AENT does not say for certain that the Khabouris Codex is the Yonan Codex, he does mention the same incidents of its arrival in 1954 as the Yonan Codex and mentions the Yonan Codex foundation. I personally feel defrauded. My thoughst Jono, it should without a doubt be thrown into the mix!

  11. Steven says

    Isaiah 30: 8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

    9That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

    10Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

    11Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

    12Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

    13Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.

    14And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters’ vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

    15For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

  12. David Nowlin says

    Steven,
    You stopped where it was convenient for your point which I fail to see.
    On to verse 18 though,
    “Truly YHVH is waiting to show you grace. Truly, He will arise to pardon you. For YHVH is an Eloheim of Justice; Happy are all who wait for Him.”

  13. Steven says

    David, please stop addressing your comments to me,

  14. Steven says

    And the Lord waits for repentance at some future time a meeting takes place:

    Isaiah 30: 18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

    19For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.

    20And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

    21And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

  15. Steven says

    Matthew 5:11
    Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

  16. Steven says

    And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

    28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

    29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

    30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

    31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

    32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    33And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

    34And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

    35(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

  17. David Nowlin says

    Steven,
    I must address you this last time. YHVH says I must obey Him. He also says that if I offend my brother I must go and make it right with him.
    I obviously have offended you so I must obey Eloheim first and you second. Thus, I must address this comment to you.
    I don’t know how I have offended you but I ask your forgiveness. I have only tried to dialog with you in love. I feel no guilt so obviously it is a misunderstanding of some kind. That is one of the faults of talking by internet.
    But, please forgive me brother for having offended you? And may YHVH bless you and keep you in the future and grant you shalom.
    David

  18. Steven says

    David, I am not offended but our dialogue gets confusing on my end.

    I acknowledge your love and desire for shalom. I feel your frustration and it comes across to me as somewhat combative and I don’t want to fight with a brother.

    Sometimes I quote a scripture that contains a message I would like to express. It is a manner of speaking or a way of communicating I sometimes use.

    P.S. This comment took me 83 minutes to write. What is really frustrating to me, I don’t think it says exactly what I want to say.
    Peace to my brothers and sisters,

  19. Kieran says

    David Nowlin,

    I love your testimony, we shouldn’t write anyone off.

  20. Aaron McGill says

    I think the main issue here that Baruch was bringing up in regards to Nehemiah’s book, and Nehemiah’s putting down of Aramaic as original, is the fact that Nehemiah does not accept Yeshua as Mashiyach. Which is why, for Nehemiah, finding Karite support in the N.T. is more important that just finding “anti-1st Century pharisee Christianity.” As Nehemiah is selling his pro Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew book, (not because he’s pro Yeshua as Mashiyach, but pro Karite, and anti-popular Christianity) he needs to go against anything that would destroy his market share. The Aramaic Peshitta does just that. If the Aramaic is Original (and we know it already predates Nehemiah’s 13th Century Manuscript) and, as it clearly shows that the whole Moses seat issue that Nehemiah brings up (and really that his whole book and tour is based on) is not really an issue and is clear in the Aramaic that Yeshua is saying what He has always said… “don’t follow hypocrites”, then what is left to sell? What is left to tour with? What is left to attack? The Aramaic says, no worries, follow Yeshua, follow Torah, it’s plain and simple. This doesn’t work for Nehemiah, as I stated earlier that it cuts into his market share and completely diminishes any need at all for the Shem Tov manuscripts to even exist! They really are not needed. And if you promote a product and sell that product and it provides for you and then the market says, hey… that’s no big deal… then, before it all collapses, you do your best to attack what is real… Yet thankfully, the evidence speaks for itself. As Yeshua said, they who don’t have the son, don’t have the Father. Yeshua, not I, said… that the Father must reveal the Son to those whom He chooses. If Nehemiah, in light of the mountain of evidence before him, has not seen… well… I don’t really know why there’s any debates about this sort of thing. You’re either in the Kingdom or you’re not. Especially when you don’t want to be.

    Aaron.

  21. Aaron McGill says

    One note on David Nowlin’s comment from April 10th about the AENT being “lucrative”. I know, first hand, that it is not. I was the distributor for Canada for a year. (2008-2009) (and I occasionally shipped to the U.S. and Israel.) Often bibles were going to people who had no money for them. Or whole cases going to congregations who just wanted to learn the truth. The AENT is anything but making money. These bibles are going places and doing things that the little western minded religious spirits don’t really care about. The Netzari Press is about as grass roots as it gets, and cares more about what’s in the word, then the profits from the word. It’s basically just making enough to print another set. Some people, with their carnal minds, are just following the little minded path of the haSatan and his darts. One must speak from what they know, not what they don’t.

  22. Aaron McGill says

    One final note. To know whether something is a thing or not a thing requires one to look at the thing. Now, evidently, there are no Aramaic Scholars commenting here. So, might I suggest reading up on peshitta.org, or http://www.thelostgoys.com (especially the textual part) where there are many books about Peshitta primacy. The first one on the list should make it clear enough. I bet Judas felt a bit “defrauded” too when he though Yeshua wasn’t the real one either.

  23. Hope Friese says

    W/o reading all of the above comments, I wanted to answer the question as to whether Nehemiah Gordon has stated or written that Yeshua was a Karaite. I purchased the DVD The Hebrew Yeshua vs the Greek Jesus, and from my recollection he did say that Jesus ‘sounded’ like a Karaite, kind of jokingly…not in quotes. I am new to this and purchased the DVD to see if it would add to my knowledge base, it did not help with understanding Yeshua vs Jesus (which is what I was hoping) but it did help in understanding Judaism, the Talmud, the Mishnah. Shalom, Hope

  24. Yosef Avraham says

    Most of Christianity was never raised or confronted with Deuteronomy 13. So, they have no concern that the Gentile Church Fathers and Constantine altered the path Yehovah set for all of HIS Children.

    1st John 3:10 By this the children of Elohim and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of Elohim, nor the one who does not love his brother.

    These ‘Fathers’ chose to blaspheme the Sovereign One, by appointing the Venerable Day of the Sun, as their holy day, while encouraging their sheep to labor on Yehovah’s Sabbath. They assimilated many other pagan traditions, that even the Daughters of Catholicism (REV. 17:5) never abandoned, but in-fact make excuses for and dress-up in Bible text ( 2nd Peter 3:16).

    When I consider all the blasphemous things the Church does weekly, in replacing Yehovah’s appointed ways and her violent & venomous history of anti-Semitism & anti-Judaism, I cannot fault anyone who rejects SUNday’s Ba’al-Jesus. There are plenty of different Ba’al-Jesus to choose from, given 3,000+ denominations.

    Given that Yehovah is Spirit: (John 4:24) “Elohim is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth;” we see that Yeshua is the physical incarnation of Yehovah’s will.

    John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

    John 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear (from Yehovah), I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him (Yehovah) who sent Me (Yeshua).

    Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if You be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but Yours, be done.

    Hebrews 2:7 “You (Yehovah) have made him (Yeshua) for a little while lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, and have appointed him (Yeshua) over the works of Your (Yehovah) hands;

    1st COR. 15:27 For He (Yehovah) has put all things in subjection under His (Yeshua’s) feet. But when He (Yehovah) says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He (Yehovah) is excepted, Who put all things in subjection to Him (Yeshua).

    (( except: to exclude; leave out; to exempt ))

    REV. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which Yehovah gave Him…

    REV 5:7 And He (Yeshua) came and took the book out of the right hand of Him (Yehovah) who sat on the throne.

    REV. 5:12 “…Worthy is the Lamb that was slain (Yeshua), to receive (from Yehovah) power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

    Again, Yehovah is Spirit and far beyond the realm of this universe. So, all of these physical manifestations are ‘word pictures’ for our carbon-based intellect.

    Now that Baruch ben Daniel has exposed himself as the source of the agitation to GLC, it would be expedient for he & Nehemiah to take this disputation off-line, as Yehovah would have it. When emotions are set aside, both men have expressed a contrite spirit.

    Barukh habah b’shem Yehovah. בָּרוּךְ הַבָּא, בְּשֵׁם יְהֹוָה; Psa 118:26

  25. Herb Brooks says

    Concerning the “witnesses”. A witness is NOT a witness unless they are willing to “testify” to what they have witness. I think Torah is pretty clear about that.

  26. Daniel says

    Wow…as a fairly new person to the Hebrew Roots movement I sometimes learn more from the comments than on the show…
    David Nowlin,
    I enjoy reading your comments and your patience expressed in your teaching….G-d Bless…

    Uhhh Jono…you’re a great host, I love your line up of people and sense of humor…It totally makes the show more digestible for us new guys who get frustrated with Bilblical statments that are obviously true….but they contradict our inherited theology….*@#*

    Great Job

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